Siler piece of $#$*

[flm_shooter]

Well, not really, but I couldn't resist. As you all may have heard before, I inherited one of my dad's rifles, built for him by Walter Cain. It sat on the wall for about 10 years before I started shooting again.

The absolute only complaint I have ever had is the **** would wiggle around on the tumbler. It would wiggle so much it could slam the flint into the barrel, causing all sorts of mayhem.

I tried a brass washer shim on the outside of the lockplate, this helped a bit. I tried a washer on the inside, this snugged it up perfect (but all other parts needed to bump the washer).

I finally bought the TOTW catalog to verify my suspicions that this was a siler lock (It was built in the late 70's, does that make it a Siler not a Chambers?). I ordered a new **** and new tumbler.

Imagine how suprised I was when the parts got here and they looked different. Notice the end of the tumbler on the original versus the replacement. (original on left in both pics).

Cocks:

Tumblers:

My suspicion is that at some time in the past the end of the tumbler broke off and is stuck in the ****? Would the builder have welded it in? It sure looks broken, not designed that way.

For now, I have gone back to the shim idea, realizing that filing and shaping a tumbler is a bit beyond my skills right now.

 

[Dave K]

I have set new hammers more than once and you could do the same here. Tig weld the hammer shut and drill a hole the correct size for the screw where it passes through the hammer into the tumbler. Now take the hammer and sweat solder to the back side of the hammer. Install the screw through the hammer and place it on the tumbler. Place a small socket over the screw/hammer and with the hammer placed in the correct position, give it a good rap with a hammer. This will "engrave" the sqaure of the tumbler on to the solder that you sweated onto the hammer. If you do not get a good impression, add solder again and redo it. Now that you have marked the tumbler on the hammer where you want it, drill the hole out to near the correct size and finish the square out with the correct files. Easier than you think. Go slow and test often for a snug fit. Actually I file mine to a slight taper so that it will tighten as I tighten the tumbler/hammer screw.

 

[Zonie]

I'll mention what little I know about these locks.

First off, I think Siler built the locks back in the '70s.
I've only been building rifles for about 10 years so anything earlier than that is just a guess.
Speaking for the last 10 years though, the Siler Castings, springs and screws (lock kits) have been available for anyone to build.
I suspect that most of the Siler locks out there were made by dozens of different companies and individuals.
Jim Chambers, I believe now owns the rights for Siler locks, and builds them however, he also sells the kits so unless it is marked with his identification, he didn't build it.

Looking at the photos you posted I'll say first off, the end ot the tumbler has broken off and is still stuck in the hammer.
IMO, part of the reason you think the new part is radically different is it is all there.

These new parts look like the investment castings which are close to the final shape, but do require fitting, drilling, threading and most importantly, hardening. As you guessed, it is not a job for someone who is new to this type of work, but on the other hand, it isn't real hard to do for those who know how.

I would suggest that someone like Jim Chambers, or some of the others on this forum who are really good at building these locks be contacted (or volunteer?) to get with you.
If you send them your complete lock and the new parts they will be able to get you back in good shape.

I can't say I would recommend using the existing lock with, or without a shim. With the tumbler partially broken, the screw is doing more work than it is really intended to do and it could fail. If it does fail, the **** could fly off of the gun and damage something or someone.

 

[Tim]

I built three large Siler flintlocks back in 1977. I'm still using them today on a long rifle(.50 cal), a pistol(also .50 cal) and a shotgun(12 gauge). They all spark when I pull the trigger as long as I keep the flints sharp and the bearing surfaces well lubed. I do admit that I reworked them until they would do 10-15 shots or more before I needed to rework the flint edge. I found that hardening the frizzen and bending the **** were very important. I also polished all bearing surfaces to as smooth as I could get using 400 grit wet and dry sand paper. Just my own experience. For the record I never did get a small siler flintlock to work correctly so I converted it to percussion. Good luck on your builds.

 

[Donny]

Everyone should attempt to assemble one Siler kit. It can be quite an education, :shocking: and it can be almost as expensive than buying a finished lock. Gives you an appreciation of those who do it right. My L&R locks look like they were assembled by a 10 yr old cub scout. My 1st Siler attempt was similar. Your lock could have been sold as a kit. :hmm:

 

[2158]

hey fillmore, the lock you have could be a true bud siler.
but j. chambers has been around for a long time. 20 plus.
bud made good stuff back then as does chambers. every
now and then you get one with a flaw. but thats what
happens in the commercial buisness... i know chambers
stands behind his products. i have gun locks by both
guys. and the origional siler has all the origional
parts and about 10,000 shots on it. "don't give up
on siler locks". it's the only lock i use on my custom
rifles. the one in your photo looks like a quick fix
later, mike :m2c:

 

[don getz]

Filmore....The only part you really needed was a new tumbler. The person who built your lock initially forced
the **** onto the tumbler, making it TOO tight. At some
point, when you, or someonelse, tried to remove the **** it
broke off a portion of the tumbler, and it remains in the
****. To fix it, take a punch and punch that little square
part, with the hole in it. Then replace it on the new tumbler. When you replace it, file the square hole, or the
square stud on the tumbler so that you don't need a huge hammer to install it. It should not be sloppy, but by the
same token, you must be able to remove it. When Bud Siler
owned the lock business, he did not make and sell finished
locks...only sold kits. There were many people out there
that were assembling kits...some good, some bad. Since you
said Walter Cain built the gun, I assume he also built the
lock. For your information, Walt is one of the best at
assembling them...everybody prizes a lock by Walter...Don

 

[flm_shooter]

I posted a full reply this morning, but it hath disappeared. I need to clarify:

I don't really think Siler's are a piece of @$#, I just couldn't resist the title. I expected you guys to tell me I broke it, not the builder. Walter Cain was a good friend of my father, and he built a great gun.

I have a new tumbler. I figure I'll practice on a couple, then give it up and ask the group here for referrals to a good gunsmith. That's way too much fine work for me! :master:

 

[flm_shooter]

And just in case it was the picture that choked it:

Here is the rifle in question, a heck of a shooter.

 

You asked if the lock was a Siler or a Chambers made Siler...this is from Jim Chambers web site:

Around 1960 C.E. "Bud" Siler made the first Siler lock by copying a pristine Germanic style lock produced around 1770. From that first effort grew a business that continues to this day to set the standard by which all other locks are judged.

On December 16, 1993 after thirty plus years of superb service, Mr. and Mrs. Siler retired, and Siler Lock Company was sold to Jim Chambers Flintlocks, Ltd. It is our intent to continue supplying gun builders with the same high quality products and services they have grown to expect from the Silers. In addition, we will introduce new locks and continually strive to improve the quality of our products.

Siler locks are well known for their reliability and overall quality. When there is a need for a lock that will give years of trouble-free, dependable service, the only choice is Siler.

We guarantee any castings we sell to be free of defects. We will replace, free of charge, any broken spring that is returned to us. Any lock that we assemble is guaranteed for the life of the original purchaser. Your only cost is the postage to return the unsatisfactory part or lock to us for repair or replacement. The only parts we cannot guarantee are the ones which have been altered or abused. We always welcome your suggestions, comments, or questions.

Jim may be able to help you with a replacement part for this lock and you would probably be more please in the end

Woody

 

[Darkhorse]

Before I did anything I would most certainly contact Jim Chambers and company, as it is my understanding that Marse Chambers redesigned some of the parts on the siler lock for efficiency. For example, the sear bar staying in the same position at all 3 positions.
They are very helpful and a quick phone call may prevent grief down the road.

 

[Terry Zboril]

Fillmore,

Cooper hit it on the head. The tumbler end is broken off in the ****. Punch it out an fit the new tumbler, (assuming you have a $3 set of needle files from Harbor Freight)(You didn't need the new ****). :sorry:

Darkhorse also is right in that the tumbler notches have been re-designed in recent years to give a "one position" sear location.(notice the notch positions on the new one.)

One thing Cooper forgot to mention, is that your new Siler/Chambers tumbler, after fitting to the ****, IS PROBABLY STILL SOFT, AS CAST,.

You (or a gunsmith) will still have to do the Hardening/Tempering on the tumbler, as drilling for the fly, drilling and tapping for the **** retaining screw, and final shaping cannot be done in the hardened state.(Jim Chambers will send you free instructions on this).

Siler/now Chambers locks are top of the line stuff, (If assembled and heat treated right)... I WILL USE NO OTHER!!. (after 25 Siler Kits, and one of each of everything else.)

Regards.

Terry

 

[flm_shooter]

It's Fixed!