Simon Kenton?

[user 49399]

Does anyone know what Simon Kenton’s short starter looked like?

 

[drissel]

Do we know he used a short starter?

 

[ohio ramrod]

Oh the old "short starter" question arises again.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Does anyone know what Simon Kenton’s short starter looked like?

He probably used a loose fitting ball and his thumb.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

There were no short starters used before about 1960.

At least, that’s what they say...

 

[Notchy Bob]

Hanson, Dillin, and Roberts called them “straight starters.” The muzzles of many 19th century target rifles are turned round for the last quarter inch or so to allow for using a machined bullet starter. There is a simple, wooden straight starter pictured in The Plains Rifle and in one of the mountain man sketchbooks which I believe is an antique, and now likely in the Museum of the Fur Trade. So, starters definitely existed, at least in the 19th century.

I think “short starter” is one of those terms like “possibles bag” and “tow worm”… a modern twist on the old terminology. If you use the modern expression as a search term in old literature, you might not find what you’re looking for.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Brokennock]

There is no evidence for the use of a, "short starter," or "straight starter," or whatever one wants to call it, by folks on the frontier (or civilians in general) during Kenton's time. There are references to using the flat of one's belt knife blade and a smack against it when laid across the ball, but even these are few.

But hey,,,, as evidenced by many, many replies elsewhere on this forum,,, no one cares anymore. It's a do your own thing and do your best to justify it (or not), kind of world. Wear a toga and call it a rifleman frock (that predate our period and the material to make them was available, so someone "must have." Use a short starter and all the modern reasoning you can muster.
It's a "traditional" muzzleloading forum that doesn't give a lick about honest history.

 

[Bushfire]

So for rifled guns were they just using a looser ball/patch combo or were muzzles coned in the 18th/19th century?

 

[Grenadier1758]

From most accounts, the rifleman of the 18th century was using a loose patch and ball combination. The wooden ramrods carried a fair amount of grit, so any rifle would have wear at the muzzle that would effectively cone the muzzle. Many rifles have what would appear to be coned muzzles.

 

[tenngun]

There were no short starters used before about 1960.

At least, that’s what they say...

They are known back to at least 1810, became in some use after 1840. May not have become popular till breechloaders came in to regular use.
Loading mallets were common in dualing guns back to the 1780s, mallets were carried by central Europe rifle corps.
It doesn’t show up in any loading manuals or recorded loading by witnesses in Kenton’s time.
I think he could have used them, I invented it my second time out shooting before I knew about them at all,and before I read any loading book. If a seventeen year old kid could invent one in 1974, I’m sure they could have been invented earlier.
Except that’s proves nothing. It’s not even an argument for. This is one in the museum of the fur trade. We can’t date when it was made, or if it was added to other equipment
My bet is Kenton never used one, however it’s just a stick. Everything else on the page is contemporary

 

[Cattywompuss]

The earliest known English etymology of the word "ramrod" is 1750-1760. Yet they existed for centuries. They were also called gun-sticks, whiping-sticks, and several other forms. But they had existed for centuries when the word ramrod came into being. Lack of a written word for an object never precludes it's existence. We aaaaallll use the word ramrod universally, but the people who used them in real life every day didn't call them that universally. And they weren't
even permanent to many guns(ramrods), but were rather accepted as needing replacement occasionally if not regularly. Lack of mention of such a modern phrase like "short-starter" does not mean they weren't present. It doesn't prove they did exist either, but I feel that an understanding of history is not wholly reliant on modern language as a source for that which existed in the past e.g pre-literate peoples might not have written down the word fire, but they sure as spit knew what it was and used it.

Anyone know a source for the first coned rifle barrel? Not blunderbusses, mind you, but actual coned rifle barrels?

 

[brazosland]

Ask yourself if you want to use a short starter while loading during an Indian fight?

While taking cover behind a tree?

If you drop or lose it, your rifle is (almost) useless.

Still sound like a good idea?

For a competition gun, or even a hunting gun I’m sure they used something like that…or maybe not.

But for a gun you need to load fast if you expect to live? No. So, that leaves you with either undersized balls which are still “minute of Indian” accurate at reasonable ranges or coned muzzles.

Serious frontier rifleman liked to play accuracy games, lots of documentation of that. So, a loose ball and patch would be too inaccurate for those games…no problem just carry two moulds and cast two different size balls, one for work, one for play. Except…they didn’t.

We know, I personally know, that coning does not effect accuracy…and it lets you load quick during those times your hair might be about to depart your head!

Interesting discussion. I think it partially depends on who you are, and why you are shooting.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Ask yourself if you want to use a short starter while loading during an Indian fight?

While taking cover behind a tree?

If you drop or lose it, your rifle is (almost) useless.

Still sound like a good idea?

For a competition gun, or even a hunting gun I’m sure they used something like that…or maybe not.

But for a gun you need to load fast if you expect to live? No. So, that leaves you with either undersized balls which are still “minute of Indian” accurate at reasonable ranges or coned muzzles.

Serious frontier rifleman liked to play accuracy games, lots of documentation of that. So, a loose ball and patch would be too inaccurate for those games…no problem just carry two moulds and cast two different size balls, one for work, one for play. Except…they didn’t.

We know, I personally know, that coning does not effect accuracy…and it lets you load quick during those times your hair might be about to depart your head!

Interesting discussion. I think it partially depends on who you are, and why you are shooting.

I could see speed being an issue, although I imagine unless you are in a fortified position like a blockhouse, you may be getting hands on in a fight vefore you could even get reloaded. Circumstance might dictate, but we also know for a fact that riflemen in the Colonial forces during the AWI were not counted upon to stand in the line of battle for this very reason(except that one time). Rifles are inherently slow to load, with or without a starter. Especially compared to a smoothy with cartridges.

But does anyone know when barrels were first coned? Some early guns have flared muzzles, but many are from wear. Do we have a source anywhere for coning?

 

[brazosland]

I could see speed being an issue, although I imagine unless you are in a fortified position like a blockhouse, you may be getting hands on in a fight vefore you could even get reloaded. Circumstance might dictate, but we also know for a fact that riflemen in the Colonial forces during the AWI were not counted upon to stand in the line of battle for this very reason(except that one time). Rifles are inherently slow to load, with or without a starter. Especially compared to a smoothy with cartridges.

But does anyone know when barrels were first coned? Some early guns have flared muzzles, but many are from wear. Do we have a source anywhere for coning?

How do you wear a muzzle (crown) with a wooden ramrod? And evenly all the way around at that?

 

[oreclan]

Lewis Wetzel sure didn't use a short starter!

 

[sprucefly]

This is an interesting thread. I've owned over 10 original antique Ohio rifles and every one was coned. In fact, my favorite ".45" deer rifle used a .429 ball with pillow ticking patch and my favorite "'32" shot a .289 w/pillow ticking.. All are 19th century guns. My question isn't when coneing started but when did it run out of favour. Probably when target shooting replaced warfare as the main use of one's rifle. When I first got into muzzle loading I played with patched versus unpatched balls. Patched balls had to be driven down the barrel and the same ball w/o patch could be dropped down the bore and the ball "seated" w/a slap to the side of the rifle. I always kept my barrel pointed up until shooting. I never took a downhill angled shot with the patchless load. So I don't see the need for 2 molds or diffenet sized balls for patched and patchless shooting.

As to starters I think I've seen photos of starters, with bags and other accoutrements, that were supposed to be from colonial times. Certainly riflemen from the Napaleonic Wars carried mallets to start balls down their rifles. The need for help starting a patched ball has been know for centuries it seems.

 

[hanshi]

Does anyone know what Simon Kenton’s short starter looked like?

I believe Simon's short starter was a red headed kid about about 4'10". Sorry, couldn't help myself.

FWIW the wars with both the Brits and the Native Indians are pretty much over, maybe even entirely over. This means your life does not depend on how fast you pour powder and seat prb.

 

[springfield art]

Does anyone know what Simon Kenton’s short starter looked like?

I doubt he even had one. Plus if he did it would just be a short stick-like thing, not like anyone's gonna be portraying him using one. Just sayin'

 

[Cattywompuss]

How do you wear a muzzle (crown) with a wooden ramrod? And evenly all the way around at that?

You don't, but you certainly can erode the muzzle of a barrel over time, which is how many originals appear to me. Got us a reference to coning other than a bunch of worn muzzles we suppose are coned?

Also, it hardly needs repeating, but there is an old parable regarding water dripping on a stone i.e. the Grand Canyon.

 

[tenngun]

Lewis Wetzel sure didn't use a short starter!

No, what we can say is he is not known to have used one. We can’t say when or where they were invented or first used.