Simon Kenton?

[tenngun]

We have to keep in mind how many Indians there were. Before JamesTown European disease had hurt the populations here in America. Many tribes had less then ten thousand, and some had less then five. One death was a national tragedy.
Fire fights were rare. Although there were some big fights most were ambushes. There was a sudden fight, and much hand to hand.
Hiding behind a tree and taking shots as fast as possible just didn’t happen. One might shoot at ten to twenty yard then the Indians or the whites beat feet. And for the most part whites on the frontier were in areas where Indians were friendly.
Fighting Shawnee or Cherokee is only well remembered because it was so rare
Unless war broke out with the French frontier settlements were pretty safe, and then as soon as it got hot most settlers high tailed it to safer digs

 

[flconch53]

Using a SS when a quick 2nd shot is needed is a probelm be it indians or a wounded deer. I always took a few bare ball shots when practicing just to know where the gun shot with no patch. Out of a dirty barrel it was pretty accurate

 

[tenngun]

Using a loading block, an antler topped short starter with a powder measure drilled in one side of the antler I got off some fast shots.
Leg of tge starter was in an empty hole of the block so it came out of my bag in one unit.
I was young and stupid do not try this at home boys and girls as it is not safe.
Start, gun was dry, in my hands.
Snapped frizzen shut- butted the gun and blew down barrel- at same time reached for my board and SS- switched hands to hold load in left hand, grabbed powder horn-took plug out with teeth,filled measure,replaced plug,dropped horn-pulled tail of SS out of hole,lined up hole, used SS to start ball, left tail through hole, stuck tail-board in to my belt- rammed ball home-shouldered,cocked and shot- snapped frizzen shut and restarted
Three shots in one minute seven seconds

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

I live in a small town named after ol' Simon. About 9,000 people (loosely termed!) in the town, and we DO have a Walmart. had a Kroger, too, but it closed about 2 years ago. Sad.

So, down by the Courthouse was a big pink granite monument thingy, about 5' wide, 2' thick, 10' tall. Has a notch cut out about in the middle, and in that notch, protected by a piece of bullet-proof glass, was a small stick about 3/8" diameter, 6" long, with a small "T" on top.

That was Ol' Simon Kenton's O-fficial Short Starter!

People, especially old white-bearded folk clothed in Rev War period clothing, came from yards around to stare at it. Some came back day after day. Some shook their heads in dis-belief. Others just poo-poo'd the display, saying it was all a lie
In fact, so many folks came and walked around it that it just sunk down into the alluvial glacier soil so prevalent around here. Disappeared totally!

Either that, or Space Aliens made off with it to prove to the Universe that Ol' Simon did, indeed, use a short starter. At least on alternate Sunday afternoons at the County Fairgrounds.

 

[tenngun]

I live in a small town named after ol' Simon. About 9,000 people (loosely termed!) in the town, and we DO have a Walmart. had a Kroger, too, but it closed about 2 years ago. Sad.

So, down by the Courthouse was a big pink granite monument thingy, about 5' wide, 2' thick, 10' tall. Has a notch cut out about in the middle, and in that notch, protected by a piece of bullet-proof glass, was a small stick about 3/8" diameter, 6" long, with a small "T" on top.

That was Ol' Simon Kenton's O-fficial Short Starter!

People, especially old white-bearded folk clothed in Rev War period clothing, came from yards around to stare at it. Some came back day after day. Some shook their heads in dis-belief. Others just poo-poo'd the display, saying it was all a lie
In fact, so many folks came and walked around it that it just sunk down into the alluvial glacier soil so prevalent around here. Disappeared totally!

Either that, or Space Aliens made off with it to prove to the Universe that Ol' Simon did, indeed, use a short starter. At least on alternate Sunday afternoons at the County Fairgrounds.

I think that reasonable, I think SS are way older then we credit. Howsomever how many Jesse James pistols are around? How many Boone rifles?
What’s stuck in a bag and when? How many Civil war rifles were the ones great gramps carried in the revolution.
In point Disappointment there is a L&C museum. It has a knife found under the foundation of Clark’s house. Was it his? Who knows? If it was his did he carry it to the pacific? Again who knows.
Jim Bridger owned a Hawken. It was the Mountian man’s choice don’t you know? But he got it after the MM period was done.
As said I think SS were used early, but in front of public I don’t show them, because it’s presence in a display in a museum isn’t proof.

 

[brazosland]

I apply the common sense test (even though we see things culturally in much different ways than 200 years later). SS just don’t pass the smell test for frontier use.

Target shooting back East? Sure. Precision sniper rifles? Sure. Hunting rifles in areas where combat is no longer a concern? Yep.

But there is not even one instance of literature where someone observed that “Ol Jim wouldn’t have gone under if he hadn’t dropped his short starter.” Not one. Or even a mention of it.

Coning may not have been universal. But I bet it was recommended by the guy building your gun if you said you were headed down the Ohio.

There floats my stick. I’ll leave this discussion to brighter fellows.

 

[tenngun]

I apply the common sense test (even though we see things culturally in much different ways than 200 years later). SS just don’t pass the smell test for frontier use.

Target shooting back East? Sure. Precision sniper rifles? Sure. Hunting rifles in areas where combat is no longer a concern? Yep.

But there is not even one instance of literature where someone observed that “Ol Jim wouldn’t have gone under if he hadn’t dropped his short starter.” Not one. Or even a mention of it.

Coning may not have been universal. But I bet it was recommended by the guy building your gun if you said you were headed down the Ohio.

There floats my stick. I’ll leave this discussion to brighter fellows.

Common sense just doesn’t work, best arguments just don’t work. Unfortunately. The trouble with experimental archeology is we can use their equipment but not their mind.
Until we find one it’s who knows. And your best guess is as good, or bad as anyone else’s

 

[brazosland]

My experimental archeology tells me they are a very bad f-ing idea.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Another unrelated thread inspired me to browse through Gordon Minnis' book, American Primitive Knives 1770-1870, and this page sort of jumped out at me:

The author indicates that stubby little tine sticking out near the butt of the handle shows evidence of being purposely trimmed and shaped to the form you see. He assumes it was used as a bullet starter, and I find no reason to disagree with him.

So, it's not exactly a "short starter" or "straight starter," but it does appear as if it was intended to serve a similar function. It does appear long enough to seat a bullet in the bore well below the level of the muzzle.

If Simon Kenton used a bullet starter, maybe he would have had one similar to this one...

Notchy Bob

 

[user 49399]

I posted this thread to start some light hearted discussion of the topic and so far you fine folks haven’t disappointed me. The responses are very interesting. I have some opinions about short starters or whatever you want to call them, but have absolutely no documentation or proof to support any of it. I don’t think folks like Simon Kenton, Daniel Boone, Jim Bridger and others of that period had or used short starters. I think they used looser loads than some folks today do, so I also use a loose patch and ball combination that doesn’t require the use of a short starter. But that’s just my unproven opinion and costs just what you paid for it.

I like to watch videos of folks shooting traditional muzzleloaders, especially those who try to be historically correct. One thing I find so amusing is when someone goes to great lengths to look historically and period correct. They will have a custom made muzzleloader, clothing and accoutrements that make them look like they just stepped out of the 18th or 19th century. But, then they will go to load that expensive, period correct rifle and will pull out a short starter with a brass 38 special case on the end of it.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I posted this thread to start some light hearted discussion of the topic and so far you fine folks haven’t disappointed me. The responses are very interesting. I have some opinions about short starters or whatever you want to call them, but have absolutely no documentation or proof to support any of it. I don’t think folks like Simon Kenton, Daniel Boone, Jim Bridger and others of that period had or used short starters. I think they used looser loads than some folks today do, so I also use a loose patch and ball combination that doesn’t require the use of a short starter. But that’s just my unproven opinion and costs just what you paid for it.

I like to watch videos of folks shooting traditional muzzleloaders, especially those who try to be historically correct. One thing I find so amusing is when someone goes to great lengths to look historically and period correct. They will have a custom made muzzleloader, clothing and accoutrements that make them look like they just stepped out of the 18th or 19th century. But, then they will go to load that expensive, period correct rifle and will pull out a short starter with a brass 38 special case on the end of it.

On the other hand, you may be laughing at something that is far more accurate than you wish it was. A .38Spl case on a modern "short-starter" is an improvised tool. As were a lot actual frontier implements. Having a stout little stick to whack with your knife or palm isn't a historical argument. It's certainly less a matter of dispute than when the earliest Clovis points were formed, or whether the Bilbo Mound in Savannah is real or imagined.

Ball starters aren't a modern invention: this is known fact. The question is, were they in regular use in American longriflery on the frontier, not "Did they exist?"

 

[fillwa]

And there are stories of Simon loading his rifle while running. Do you suppose a SS was used during this activity? My opinion is probably not.

 

[toot]

Ask yourself if you want to use a short starter while loading during an Indian fight?

While taking cover behind a tree?

If you drop or lose it, your rifle is (almost) useless.

Still sound like a good idea?

For a competition gun, or even a hunting gun I’m sure they used something like that…or maybe not.

But for a gun you need to load fast if you expect to live? No. So, that leaves you with either undersized balls which are still “minute of Indian” accurate at reasonable ranges or coned muzzles.

Serious frontier rifleman liked to play accuracy games, lots of documentation of that. So, a loose ball and patch would be too inaccurate for those games…no problem just carry two moulds and cast two different size balls, one for work, one for play. Except…they didn’t.

We know, I personally know, that coning does not effect accuracy…and it lets you load quick during those times your hair might be about to depart your head!

Interesting discussion. I think it partially depends on who you are, and why you are shooting.

sounds like a smaller DIA. ball or a hand full of BUCK SHOT, would be called for & work better to get lead down range? jmho.

 

[toot]

any way dangerous times to keep your TOP NOT!

 

[tenngun]

And there are stories of Simon loading his rifle while running. Do you suppose a SS was used during this activity? My opinion is probably not.

Did he patch?
One of Gods little jokes played on me is missing hair. Or I should say hair that was supposed to be on my head wound up on my back…. Good joke Grandfather
However if someone is charging behind me with the intent of lifting said hair I don’t think I’m going to care about the x ring
If he is so close I’m 1) running
2) loading directly from horn
I’m going to bet it was a ball dropped down the bore. And butt tamped a time or two on the ground in hopes it seated
Might get killed from exploding gun, vs will get killed by Indian I know which move I would make

 

[jefair1]

Ask yourself if you want to use a short starter while loading during an Indian fight?

While taking cover behind a tree?

If you drop or lose it, your rifle is (almost) useless.

Still sound like a good idea?

For a competition gun, or even a hunting gun I’m sure they used something like that…or maybe not.

But for a gun you need to load fast if you expect to live? No. So, that leaves you with either undersized balls which are still “minute of Indian” accurate at reasonable ranges or coned muzzles.

Serious frontier rifleman liked to play accuracy games, lots of documentation of that. So, a loose ball and patch would be too inaccurate for those games…no problem just carry two moulds and cast two different size balls, one for work, one for play. Except…they didn’t.

We know, I personally know, that coning does not effect accuracy…and it lets you load quick during those times your hair might be about to depart your head!

Interesting discussion. I think it partially depends on who you are, and why you are shooting.

I would imagine that during a fight, they wouldn't waste time with a patch. Just spit a ball down the barrel, prime and shoot.

 

[user 49399]

I also don’t think he walked into the local trading post with a micrometer to find patch material so many thousandths of an inch thick. And he probably didn’t order pre-cut pillow ticking patches from a mail order catalog either. Again, just my unproven ideas.

 

[springfield art]

This is an interesting thread. I've owned over 10 original antique Ohio rifles and every one was coned. In fact, my favorite ".45" deer rifle used a .429 ball with pillow ticking patch and my favorite "'32" shot a .289 w/pillow ticking.. All are 19th century guns. My question isn't when coneing started but when did it run out of favour. Probably when target shooting replaced warfare as the main use of one's rifle. When I first got into muzzle loading I played with patched versus unpatched balls. Patched balls had to be driven down the barrel and the same ball w/o patch could be dropped down the bore and the ball "seated" w/a slap to the side of the rifle. I always kept my barrel pointed up until shooting. I never took a downhill angled shot with the patchless load. So I don't see the need for 2 molds or diffenet sized balls for patched and patchless shooting.

As to starters I think I've seen photos of starters, with bags and other accoutrements, that were supposed to be from colonial times. Certainly riflemen from the Napaleonic Wars carried mallets to start balls down their rifles. The need for help starting a patched ball has been know for centuries it seems.

Having to use a mallet to seat a ball; imagine after 2 or 3 shots how hard it would be, esp. in the heat in summer, and the heat of battle. I think there's a "sweet spot" with the thickness of your patch, where you can run the ball down without having to use a pneumatic jackhammer to ram it!

 

[Brokennock]

I also don’t think he walked into the local trading post with a micrometer to find patch material so many thousandths of an inch thick. And he probably didn’t order pre-cut pillow ticking patches from a mail order catalog either. Again, just my unproven ideas.

This is another good argument for probable use of smaller balls and looser loads historically.
Just using a .45 caliber rifle as an example, if one was using a .445 ball and it shoots well with some scrap linen that was on hand (and if it were measured would be .011") and one had run out of that cloth, if your buddy's patch cloth,or the stuff from the trader, was thicker, one might have had a problem. If our historical shooter had used a .440 ball, he could still maintain "minute of *****," or "minute of deer vital," accuracy, most likely even if the replacement material was slightly thinner.

And, no need for extra junk like a ball starter.



Unless one is shooting in serious competition where cutting X's is the difference between 1st and second place, I just don't see the need for these loads that need a starter and then to be beaten down the bore. Why do folks put themselves through that for something that should be an enjoyable pass time? And please don't get me wrong, I'm all for accuracy. I have very high expectations of my modern pistols, but it doesn't take me extra stuff to carry around or extra effort and messing around when loading to get what I want.

 

[tenngun]

I also don’t think he walked into the local trading post with a micrometer to find patch material so many thousandths of an inch thick. And he probably didn’t order pre-cut pillow ticking patches from a mail order catalog either. Again, just my unproven ideas.

Audobun records Boone buying two or four hundred count linen for his gun though