Simon Kenton?

[brazosland]

Not sure how those two connect, but I’m willing to bet they would have!

Read a book called Guns of the South. Sort of along those lines and well written.

 

[brazosland]

Upon reviewing an article about a 300yr old Jager rifle earlier, it was pointed out by the author that the ramrod was a very stout steel rod and that it led him to believe the original load must have been tight. Got me thinking: why do we use wood? There is only one reasonable answer: cost and availability. Okay, that's two reasons.

But, an iron rod would be a lot of metal to waste on a stick when they were growing all over the place from hickory trees. Hickory not being native to Europe, for the few who could afford Jager rifles in Europe, a metal rod, akin to musket rods in European armies, would be more likely. Jagers are also often shorter than the American rifle and the ability to ram home a load with a metal rod in a shorter barrel would possibly never lead to development of short starters to the degree of our own.

I posit, merely as a hypothesis, that short starters were developed as longrifles became commercially produced en masse and coning by individual smith's fell out of practice. Just as tapered and flared barrels fell by the wayside with mass manufacture, coning(if it is historical as posited in this thread) died off and flat crown guns required starters(or looser ball and patch combos). We can infer this easily from military rifles(Baker et al) which were not coned. We also know that the mass manufacture began earlier than we usually believe. The gunsmiths of Pennsylvania likely didn't taper and flare or cone the massive(relatively) number of rifles turned out at the beginning of the AWI, before the congress and Washington got there act together and called for imported muskets.

This is a very good point about mass produced barrels.

And, like today, most people that own rifles can’t really shoot them all that well. The same sort of folks that show up for hunts without a zero, or with new scopes that they haven’t zero'd, or that they asked the guy at the gunstore to zero. The fellas that knew what they were about had their rifles built accordingly or adjusted loads to make them shoot.

 

[Cattywompuss]

My two cents. No one in colonial times etc would want a rifle that was a pita to load. Accuracy was relative and could be changed with amount of powder, patch material, size of ball and of course skill of the shooter. I think "smooth" rifles, fusils, fowlers or what ever you want to call them outnumbered 'true" rifles, everyday of the week because they were more useful. You could load RB, Buck n Ball or Shot depending on the need. Hunting then was also different, most in deep woods, shots were not particularly long etc., stalking was prevalent as were hunting skills in general, After all, it was how people survived! I think the ornate rifles we see were for the wealthy and were a sign of wealth etc back in the day, that could be displayed. The avg. person was not paying for "bling". They needed a firearm that was built well, reliable, and would hold up. There wasn't a "gunsmith" around every corner that you could go to too tune your rifle etc. Most of that work was probably done by the owner! Bottom line, I think they used a slightly smaller ball & patch combo that allowed them to load easily but still maintain "hunting" accuracy. I also believe that they used various patching material depending on what was available. I think practicality, availability, cost etc came foremost on the frontier.(IMHO)

Size of the ball is pretty much out for rifles. They weren't standardized and you couldn't just buy another size of ball from a store. Your mold either made the ball size the Smith intended you to have, of you would have to have the Smith make an entirely new mold. And he would probably call you a little *** for questioning his mold size and then falsely reluctantly take your money while calling you a stupid Englishman in his native German tongue.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Not sure how those two connect, but I’m willing to bet they would have!

Read a book called Guns of the South. Sort of along those lines and well written.

Is that the book with R.E. Lee on the cover holding an AK? Remember seeing it in my school library many years ago.

 

[Coinneach]

Contact Flintsteel here on the forum. He is in Amarillo, By God!, Texas and he makes them.

First class guy and excellent tool. No loss in accuracy and the cone resolves every issue that is being discussed here. Press your patched ball into the barrel with your thumb and ram it home.

Some people just like to argue or use their pile of toys I guess. Loading blocks aren’t HC either…so using them to prove your point is, well, anyway. Think about it…pour powder, then place patch and ball on muzzle, draw knife and cut patch, put knife away, draw short starter, put that away, draw ramrod, put that away. Then shoot. Really? Drop the knife? Drop the starter? Ever been shot at? Try clipping your finger nails while someone is shooting at you. But, what do I know?

Thank you sir, and yes I've been shot at when I wore uniform in the Aussie Army for 37 years.; and totally agree with your viewpoint.

 

[Coinneach]

Upon reviewing an article about a 300yr old Jager rifle earlier, it was pointed out by the author that the ramrod was a very stout steel rod and that it led him to believe the original load must have been tight. Got me thinking: why do we use wood? There is only one reasonable answer: cost and availability. Okay, that's two reasons.

But, an iron rod would be a lot of metal to waste on a stick when they were growing all over the place from hickory trees. Hickory not being native to Europe, for the few who could afford Jager rifles in Europe, a metal rod, akin to musket rods in European armies, would be more likely. Jagers are also often shorter than the American rifle and the ability to ram home a load with a metal rod in a shorter barrel would possibly never lead to development of short starters to the degree of our own.

I posit, merely as a hypothesis, that short starters were developed as longrifles became commercially produced en masse and coning by individual smith's fell out of practice. Just as tapered and flared barrels fell by the wayside with mass manufacture, coning(if it is historical as posited in this thread) died off and flat crown guns required starters(or looser ball and patch combos). We can infer this easily from military rifles(Baker et al) which were not coned. We also know that the mass manufacture began earlier than we usually believe. The gunsmiths of Pennsylvania likely didn't taper and flare or cone the massive(relatively) number of rifles turned out at the beginning of the AWI, before the congress and Washington got their act together and called for imported muskets.

Some more considerations;

Barrels were made of Iron (therefore softer than the harder Steel barrels we use today) so more prone to muzzle wear from a metal ramrod, Hickory being the better wood and more softer for ramrod use make a lot of sense. As for dirt on the ramrod, they cleaned the firearm , why wouldnt they have cleaned the ramrod ?

Cost. A wooden ramrod was more affordable, that is until European military production sorted itself out and Muskets /Rifles were produced in quantity.

 

[tenngun]

Some more considerations;

Barrels were made of Iron (therefore softer than the harder Steel barrels we use today) so more prone to muzzle wear from a metal ramrod, Hickory being the better wood and more softer for ramrod use make a lot of sense. As for dirt on the ramrod, they cleaned the firearm , why wouldnt they have cleaned the ramrod ?

Cost. A wooden ramrod was more affordable, that is until European military production sorted itself out and Muskets /Rifles were produced in quantity.

Hickory is a fall back wood, but elm, osage orange, dogwood, ash, yarrow all are tough springy woods that work.
Fine guns came with ebony rods.

 

[Coinneach]

Hickory is a fall back wood, but elm, osage orange, dogwood, ash, yarrow all are tough springy woods that work.
Fine guns came with ebony rods.

Thank you sir, I didnt know that, many of us here in Australia have always assumed Hickory was the optimum wood used.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Hickory is a fall back wood, but elm, osage orange, dogwood, ash, yarrow all are tough springy woods that work.
Fine guns came with ebony rods.

Osage is a "Mississippi River and West" wood. Not an Atlantic seaboard wood. And dogwood, by God... better luck working granite. I can't imagine anyone thinking of hickory as a fallback. Much less Louis and Clark getting extra stocks of hickory rods for shooting sticks. Is there some form of dark wood called ebony indigenous to the U.S.? Cause the only ebony I know is African.

 

[tenngun]

Osage is a "Mississippi River and West" wood. Not an Atlantic seaboard wood. And dogwood, by God... better luck working granite. I can't imagine anyone thinking of hickory as a fallback. Much less Louis and Clark getting extra stocks of hickory rods for shooting sticks. Is there some form of dark wood called ebony indigenous to the U.S.? Cause the only ebony I know is African.

Sorry, should have said go to wood instead of fallback. It was the primary, but other woods do work.
Yes ebony is not native to America, nor is hickory native to Europe but ebony was oft used on fine European guns.
We think of exports as fur and cotton we tend to forget the large amount of forest products trade between the continent.
American hickory on European guns, African ebony on American guns. African
Ebony’ s American cousin is persimmon. And the dark inner wood of persimmon is a tough flexible wood
American elm carried Napoleons guns, and wellingtons and Nelson’s too.
English built warships had to be built of English oak, but that might just be the waterway as the rest built of ‘Danzig Oak’.
Back before humans could grow a crop they leaned how to make bows. And bows require tough but flexible wood, just like ramrods. And low and behold around the world people learned to make bows, when yew or osage Orange were in short supply.
The same applies to ramrods.
Hickory is the go to, I don’t know why I wrote fall back, but it’s far from the only suitable

 

[Cattywompuss]

Sorry, should have said go to wood instead of fallback. It was the primary, but other woods do work.
Yes ebony is not native to America, nor is hickory native to Europe but ebony was oft used on fine European guns.
We think of exports as fur and cotton we tend to forget the large amount of forest products trade between the continent.
American hickory on European guns, African ebony on American guns. African
Ebony’ s American cousin is persimmon. And the dark inner wood of persimmon is a tough flexible wood
American elm carried Napoleons guns, and wellingtons and Nelson’s too.
English built warships had to be built of English oak, but that might just be the waterway as the rest built of ‘Danzig Oak’.
Back before humans could grow a crop they leaned how to make bows. And bows require tough but flexible wood, just like ramrods. And low and behold around the world people learned to make bows, when yew or osage Orange were in short supply.
The same applies to ramrods.
Hickory is the go to, I don’t know why I wrote fall back, but it’s far from the only suitable

I was bit confused by "fallback", but I know what you meant now. At first I thought you thought I was talking about bows when you led off with osage and yew. People always find something to do the trick. Let us also not forget that American live oak, though unsuitable for masts, made some great shipping timber(Old Ironsides). With the taller white and red oaks filling the mast duties. Naval stores of pine pitch were certainly the Souths biggest exports for the Brits. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised is the barrel swabs of half the cannon in the British navy were handled in American wood.

 

[Packrat]

I have read, don't remember when, that the first Baker rifle were issued with a loading mallet, it was later discontinued as it took to long to load in combat

 

[Notchy Bob]

Does anyone know what Simon Kenton’s short starter looked like?

Well, the question was specifically about Simon Kenton's short starter. He lived from 1755 to 1836, so I think we can be pretty confident in saying he was a probably a flintlock shooter for most of his life. However, just for the sake of discussion, I wanted to submit this photo of a batch of percussion-era pouches, horns, and related equipment and accoutrements from the Poulin Spring 2022 Antique Firearms Auction. This is Lot #3566:

These things were very likely used after Mr. Kenton had passed away, but they are quite old for all that. Right squarely in the middle of the picture is what appears to be a straight starter.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[DuncNZ]

The British 1776 rifle ,of which about 1000 were used By the British in the American Revolutionary war , all had factory coned muzzles .

 

[Ketchakah]

Having used Flint-guns for some 40 odd years, I know of NO "grit" that many speak of. I routinely clean and oil my wooden "ramrod"

Ps. They were called "wiping sticks or wipers" in the day. Just saying.