single-barrel percussion

[George]

I have a single-barrel half-stock percussion shotgun in about 20 ga. which I'd like some info on. It has a simple lock and trigger, no stirrup or fly, a 33" octagon-to-round tapered barrel with a wedding band. There is an entry thimble and the 2 ramrod thimbles are soldered on. There are no external markings. Under the breech are 5 stamps. Can anyone decipher these markings? I assume the EL is a Belgian stamp and the 16.6 is the bore diameter in millimeters. The small mark is possibly a crown over a definite V.

The wood of the stock is light colored and lightweight, definitely not American walnut, probably not European walnut. It is not a high quality piece, tool marks in many places give evidence of hand work, lock and tang bolts seem handmade, but it is a light, handy gun, only 5 lb., and comes to the eye better than most guns I've seen.

I'm assuming Belgian, but I'd like to know a time period.

Thanks,

Spence

 

[Zonie]

The EL is a Belgian proof mark indicating Liege as the location.

The 16.6 is the mm size of the bore which would be .6535 inches.

The Crown over V seems to be a London View mark indicating that the gun was exported to England.

These proof and view marks are much older than the gun so it's difficult to say when it was made.

 

[George]

Thanks, Zonie. No idea about the elaborate "JV3" stamp?

Spence

 

[Zonie]

It looks like a large script capital B over the top of a large capital V with a branch under it to me, but to answer your question, I didn't find anything like it in my limited information.
There is a "BV" associated with Birmingham but it also has a crown over it.

Because your photos didn't show a crown associated with it I forgot to mention it.

 

[JV Puleo]

I think its clearly a Belgian made barrel - probably the whole gun is. I strongly suspect that the crowned "V" and the other mark that looks English are Belgian fakes of English marks... a very common practice and one that was not illegal in Belgium. The "V" makes no sense because its a view mark and would not appear on a real English proved gun unless accompanied by the "GP" mark of the London proof house. The Birmingham proof marks are completely different.

In any case, by the time this gun was made, Belgian proof was legal in England as long as the gun did not bear the name of an English maker so there was no actual need to re-proof a Belgian gun unless it was being sold on the English domestic market by an English maker.

Its most likely that this is a pure export-grade gun. It simply isn't of good enough quality to have been sold into the British market because, unlike the market here in the US, there was simply no demand for what we might think of as "blue collar" guns. Shooting in Britain then, and now, is the right of land owners and very few English farmers and working class folks owned land, nor are there any "public" hunting areas.

So why fake the marks? Because even though they probably didn't understand them, many American buyers knew that good quality guns had them and they expected to see them. In fact, through the 19th century proof was not required in Britain for guns being exported but probably 99% of British export guns were proofed. I believe that Belgium did require proof on export guns but after the Civil War the reputation of Belgian guns was not high and they were never thought as well of as British guns, so adding what looks like a British mark was simply a marketing ploy.

 

[George]

I think its clearly a Belgian made barrel - probably the whole gun is.

Thanks for the input. Am I safe in assuming this is a gun of the last quarter of the 19th century?

As an aside, you and I were discussing a little highly inlaid and engraved .30 caliber rifle by Lewis Smith on another thread. I found some info about Lewis and Lester Smith and posted it, but never saw a response from you. Did you see it?

Spence

 

[JV Puleo]

Yes, I did see it but it looked to me as if you'd found whatever there was to be found - there certainly wasn't anything I could add. Good work.

I'd be more inclined to last half... it could predate the CW but not by much. Belgian guns were coming in that early but they didn't really overwhelm the market until after the war - largely as a result of rapidly rising costs in the B'ham trade which left the door open to the less expensive Belgian products.

 

[George]

Yes, I did see it...

Since they moved the thread in the middle of our discussion, I wasn't sure you would.

Thanks to all for the info on this little Belgian shotgun. I think I'll make it into a shooter.

Spence

 

[matt denison]

I have a gun just like that. The markings on your barrel are more legible than mine. I can make out the Belgian proof but that's it. Not in as good condition as yours either with cracks in the wood, much "patina" in the bore and outer surfaces. It's NOT a shooter, I have it hanging on a wall. I refer to it as a Cival War era hardware store gun. My best guess is somewhere 1860 - 70's ish. It has a very interesting bolster area where the nipple is inserted. Looks like a blob of steel that was brazed on after the fact. It would have been a light and lively shotgun during it's day.

Incidentally, I had a friend of mine purchase this gun for me in Deleware at a gun show. He boxed it up and shiped it to me here in Montana. After I looked it over I found that it was still loaded! !! The interesting thing was the load of what apeared to be # 6's was wadded with torn pages of a calendar. It was exciting as we pulled piece after piece out looking for a date. There wasn't a year printed on any of them, oh well.

Thanks for the pictures of the markings on your gun. Now I have something to go on for mine.

'dog

 

[matt denison]

One more thing: Mine has what appears to be the original tapered wooden ram rod with no metal of any kind attached.

The gun overall shows much wear from much use. Some farmer somewhere back east fed his family or popped a lot of varmints with it.

' Dog

 

[George]

One more thing: Mine has what appears to be the original tapered wooden ram rod with no metal of any kind attached.

Mine also has what I think might be an original, or at least very old ramrod. It has a small blacksmith-made single-tine worm pinned on the small end and an unusual brass ramming button on the other.

Spence

 

[matt denison]

I can't say for sure about your brass button R R end but the worm does look like an add-on. It's certainly not manufactured like you would expect or like the brass button is. Manufactured ones usually have some kind of cap so the user can handle the R R without skewering themselves. You mostly see these on higher end guns MHO.

Mine is just an ol' wall hanger, I was interested in it because of the Belgian barrel that is along the same lines as the old trade gun barrels. Also for the old time engineering that went into the blob bolster and the soldered/brazed on R R pipes. It's just a cool old gun and was within my modest price range. I may copy it when I get the time - and motivation.

Thanks again for posting pics. of the barrel markings. If you have the chance and since you are so good at posting pictures I'd sure like to see the nipple bolster area on your gun to compare to mine.

Matt

 

[George]

....I'd sure like to see the nipple bolster area on your gun to compare to mine.

Already have one. As you can see, if I ever decide to try rehabilitating the gun some serious work will have to be done on the nipple,

I may copy it when I get the time - and motivation.

I'm very impressed with the fit of this gun, maybe fits me better than any gun I've ever had. I also thought how nice it would be to have a gun made with modern materials and those exact dimensions. I measured and recorded everything I could think of, just in case.

Spence

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Good move, Spence!
Fit is very important in a fowler, and not widely understood.

 

[matt denison]

Yep, that's it! Thanks for posting that pic.

The concept and egnineering to attach that "blob" and have the ignition channel line up boggles me. If I was to copy it I would use a drum and nipple. After all it is the light weight and balance and overall handyness that I like.

I have the wood for a half stock, can turn a 16 ga. barrel to near the same dimensions, am thinking flintlock conversion type lock 'cause that's what I can make right here. Theres no special hardware although I might consider a pewter nose cap w/ entry thimble. If you refurbish yours then more power to ya. Mine is too fragile and banged up to consider ever loading it. I'll just enjoy it as an interesting artifact.