Small Siler issues

[miked35]

Looking for suggestions on what to try next. I'm about to give up and just replace the whole lock.

Lock have been problematic since new. Rifle now has nearly 300 balls through it.

Poor sparking, bad fitment and a flint smasher. Everything I have done has helped a little with every step taken but no where near the dependability of my rifle with a Large Siler (of which I've had a flint last over 50 shots without ever even needing to be knapped). On this lock sometimes only two shots before flint needs knapping. Five shots is about the limit and that is rare. I'm told the Small Siler can be troublesome although one of my shooting buddies has nearly zero issues with his and flints seem to last forever without being knapped.

So far;

1: Different flints, flint sizes, bevel up/down.

2: Tried different pieces of leather and lead wrap for flint.

3: Mounting screws too long and dragging on part of the hammer and the other pushing against fizzen spring. This was diagnosed by Dixon's.

4: Bridle was bent and pan did not fit tight along barrel causing lots of powder residue to get into the inner working of the lock. Filed parts for better fit. No, this has nothing to do with sparks or flint wear, just another issue.

5: Filed and reshaped the cam so frizzen would flip up more easily. Polished cam and frizzen spring where cam touches. Polished frizzen screw and frizzen where it touches mounting area (sorry, don't know what that's called). Yes it is oiled. Frizzen has a very sloppy fit side to side and the screw hole is too large. That's the way I received it, can't add metal.

6: Rehardend frizzen.

Nothing appears to be dragging in the inner workings of the lock.

Like I stated in the beginning. Every step helped a bit but I was spoiled by my rifle with the Large Siler and am hoping to get the same or at least close to the same dependability with the Small Siler.

I was looking at a new Chambers lock yesterday at Dixon's. On the new lock I will at least need to swap the sear and drill and tap mounting holes.

Any suggestions?

Mike

 

[rabjr]

Is this small Siler a Chambers? If so call them, box it up send it back to them. They will make it right.

 

[miked35]

Is this small Siler a Chambers? If so call them, box it up send it back to them. They will make it right.

No, it is not a Chambers although I am told ALL Siler parts come from Chambers just put together by others.

Mike

 

[nchawkeye]

Call Jim on Monday, send it back, he'll take care of it...He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet and wants you happy...

I have both locks as well, sent the small one to Jim after I broke the frizzen, he took care of it and it works just fine...

 

[hanshi]

I think the small Silers are simply a bit problematic (in general) as compared with the large Siler. I have two of the small Silers and had reliability problems with both. I sent them back and the problems (minor) were taken care of. One just needed a new frizzen. I do not think they are inferior locks by any stretch of the imagination; they are very good locks. But any mechanical problem gets magnified when the Siler is reduced in size, or any other lock for that matter.

 

[Dphar]

Looking for suggestions on what to try next. I'm about to give up and just replace the whole lock.

Lock have been problematic since new. Rifle now has nearly 300 balls through it.

Poor sparking, bad fitment and a flint smasher. Everything I have done has helped a little with every step taken but no where near the dependability of my rifle with a Large Siler (of which I've had a flint last over 50 shots without ever even needing to be knapped). On this lock sometimes only two shots before flint needs knapping. Five shots is about the limit and that is rare. I'm told the Small Siler can be troublesome although one of my shooting buddies has nearly zero issues with his and flints seem to last forever without being knapped.

So far;

1: Different flints, flint sizes, bevel up/down.

2: Tried different pieces of leather and lead wrap for flint.

3: Mounting screws too long and dragging on part of the hammer and the other pushing against fizzen spring. This was diagnosed by Dixon's.

4: Bridle was bent and pan did not fit tight along barrel causing lots of powder residue to get into the inner working of the lock. Filed parts for better fit. No, this has nothing to do with sparks or flint wear, just another issue.

5: Filed and reshaped the cam so frizzen would flip up more easily. Polished cam and frizzen spring where cam touches. Polished frizzen screw and frizzen where it touches mounting area (sorry, don't know what that's called). Yes it is oiled. Frizzen has a very sloppy fit side to side and the screw hole is too large. That's the way I received it, can't add metal.

6: Rehardend frizzen.

Nothing appears to be dragging in the inner workings of the lock.

Like I stated in the beginning. Every step helped a bit but I was spoiled by my rifle with the Large Siler and am hoping to get the same or at least close to the same dependability with the Small Siler.

I was looking at a new Chambers lock yesterday at Dixon's. On the new lock I will at least need to swap the sear and drill and tap mounting holes.

Any suggestions?

Mike

It needs to be reworked by someone who can tune it or even put it together right. The large and small Silers are very good locks if put together by someone who knows how. If anything the small lock should be faster than the large and equal at least is everything else.
Also be sure the mainspring and other internals are not bearing/dragging on the wood inside the mortise.
In your situation sending it to Chambers might be the best idea and ask if its worth reworking or if a new lock would be a better answer.


Dan

 

[miked35]

Also be sure the mainspring and other internals are not bearing/dragging on the wood inside the mortise.
In your situation sending it to Chambers might be the best idea and ask if its worth reworking or if a new lock would be a better answer.


Dan

I never noticed any marks on the wood where lock parts may be binding but will pull the lock tomorrow and take a closer look. Sounds like a good tip.

As far as sending it to Chambers for rework, I'm not willing to tie up the gun for several weeks or throw money and a prayer at it. It would be easier to just buy a new lock. I wouldn't expect the lock work to be done for free. After all, it's not Jim Chambers responsibility to correct the builders poor workmanship.

Too bad the builder wouldn't stand behind their work. You learn something every day and sometimes that is who to do business with.

Mike

 

[miked35]

Full length of mainspring is rubbing on stock. As an experiment I kept backing out the lock mounting screws and dry firing. Once I got to the point that the lock was just a bit loose, it seems to be sparking more consitantly. I will get one of my small chisels and remove just a bit of the stock and see what happens.

I still contend the buider should have been more responsive with this.

Mike

 

[denster]

Just a thought. I noted that you rehardened the frizzen but I didn't note that you mentioned anything about drawing it back after hardening. Once hardened the frizzen needs to be drawn back at 400 to 425 degrees for about 15 or twenty minutes. This should produce a light straw color. Drawn less than this or not drawn at all and the lock will spark sometimes or weakly and will be a real rock smasher as the flint can't get a good bite on the frizzen. Lock geometry is important as is fitting but that said I have seen some really sloppy locks that sparked really well. A kitchen oven will work for drawing back set it at 400 and look for the light straw color to appear. If you don't see it raise it to 425. The face of the frizzen needs to be polished bright so you can see the color. As an aside this drawing back need to be done if you case harden a mild steel frizzen also.
The sloppy fit of the frizzen is an easy fix. Just open up the hole in the frizzen where the pivot goes and install a bushing with the correct inside diameter this will correct the pivot slop. Leave it a little wide of the thickness of the frizzen tail and you can fit it to correct side to side slop. This fix is a lot easier than having the frizzen welded up then redrilling and fitting.
Hope this helps.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I just finished my first flintlock rifle and noticed the lock was a little slower than I expected. I had carefully inletted the lock internals but after reading some of the suggestions in another post I realized I had never checked my inletting job with the lock bolts fully tightened. I had only pushed the soot blackened lock in with my hand to see where to remove wood.

I pulled my lock, blackened all the internals with candle soot, installed the lock and tightened the lock bolts.

To my amazement it wasn't a question of where the lock parts were rubbing wood but where they weren't. Lots of black in my lock inlet, particularly where the main spring sat in the inlet.

A little more chisel work an my lock became much faster. Another rookie oversight but an eye opener for future builds.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't Crank those lock bolts down. Easy does it. They just need to hold the lock plate in that mortise you so carefully carved into the stock for the lock.

Treat your lock as you might a fine swiss watch. Put witness marks on the screw heads to indicate when they are properly seated, and then refer to the witness marks every time you put that screw, or bolt back into the lock or stock.

Leave the Gorilla out of your workshop when working with any MLer. More problems are created by screwing in bolts and screws too FAR than by any other single cause.

The plate seated in its mortise, keeps the entire Lock from turning due to the torque generated by the firing of the lock. That is why so many older locks used only ONE LOCK BOLT to hold the entire lock to the stock, and why many replicas use only one bolt today.

There are two things I look for when I am delivered a gun that is having Problems: The first is for evidence of rings or marks on the ramrod, indicating a loaded gun, and an empty gun. The second thing is witness marks on the bolts. I prefer to see slotted bolts and screws with the slots all aligned with the length of the barrel, but you don't see this very often with commercially made guns these day. When these "marks" are present, they tell me I am dealing with a careful owner, who knows how to take care of his gun.

When witness marks are ABSENT, the first thing I do is hold the gun so that I can look down the length of the lockplate to check it to see if: a. any of the bolts'heads are sticking past the lockplate, and b. if the lockplate is pulled inward so it is no longer square with the side flats of the barrel. Backing out the offending BOLT cures about 90% of the "Lock Problems" I am asked to "fix". :hmm:

 

[miked35]

Just a thought. I noted that you rehardened the frizzen but I didn't note that you mentioned anything about drawing it back after hardening. Once hardened the frizzen needs to be drawn back at 400 to 425 degrees for about 15 or twenty minutes. This should produce a light straw color.

Yes I did draw it after hardening. After reading seveal variations on how to do it, this was my process.

Heated oven to 375 degrees using oven thermometer. Put hardened frizzen in oven for one hour and turned oven off leaving frizzen in to cool down with the oven. Removed frizzen the next morning and it came out a nice light golden color.

Mike

 

[miked35]

I just finished my first flintlock rifle and noticed the lock was a little slower than I expected. I had carefully inletted the lock internals but after reading some of the suggestions in another post I realized I had never checked my inletting job with the lock bolts fully tightened. I had only pushed the soot blackened lock in with my hand to see where to remove wood.

I pulled my lock, blackened all the internals with candle soot, installed the lock and tightened the lock bolts.

To my amazement it wasn't a question of where the lock parts were rubbing wood but where they weren't. Lots of black in my lock inlet, particularly where the main spring sat in the inlet.

A little more chisel work an my lock became much faster. Another rookie oversight but an eye opener for future builds.

That was the next thing I was going to do although I was thinking about using chalk powder. Of course cleaning the lock thoroughly afterward.

Mike

 

[miked35]

Don't Crank those lock bolts down. Easy does it. They just need to hold the lock plate in that mortise you so carefully carved into the stock for the lock.

Treat your lock as you might a fine swiss watch. Put witness marks on the screw heads to indicate when they are properly seated, and then refer to the witness marks every time you put that screw, or bolt back into the lock or stock.

Leave the Gorilla out of your workshop when working with any MLer. More problems are created by screwing in bolts and screws too FAR than by any other single cause.

The plate seated in its mortise, keeps the entire Lock from turning due to the torque generated by the firing of the lock. That is why so many older locks used only ONE LOCK BOLT to hold the entire lock to the stock, and why many replicas use only one bolt today.

There are two things I look for when I am delivered a gun that is having Problems: The first is for evidence of rings or marks on the ramrod, indicating a loaded gun, and an empty gun. The second thing is witness marks on the bolts. I prefer to see slotted bolts and screws with the slots all aligned with the length of the barrel, but you don't see this very often with commercially made guns these day. When these "marks" are present, they tell me I am dealing with a careful owner, who knows how to take care of his gun.

When witness marks are ABSENT, the first thing I do is hold the gun so that I can look down the length of the lockplate to check it to see if: a. any of the bolts'heads are sticking past the lockplate, and b. if the lockplate is pulled inward so it is no longer square with the side flats of the barrel. Backing out the offending BOLT cures about 90% of the "Lock Problems" I am asked to "fix". :hmm:

All good tips, thanks.

Mike

 

[paulvallandigham]

You really need to raise the temperature of your oven to at least 450 degrees when tempering the frizzen. Otherwise, it won't relieve the stresses well enough, and will be a poor sparker. Use a separate thermometer to judge the temperature of the oven, not the numbers on the outside knob.I know people who temper their frizzens three times to get the degree of stress relief they desire.

 

[LRB]

Paul, 375° is the temp Jim Chambers recommends, and seems to be just fine. 400° should be max. with 425° at maybe a tad much. 450° would be too high, in my opinion. I would be more concerned with what oil he quenched in. 1095 is quite picky about that in order to reach full hard. two, two hour tempers will bring to a good temper. beyond that you are dealing with diminised returns.

 

[miked35]

Quentched with 30 wt motor oil. That's what I had on hand. The only other oil on hand was 10/30 synthetic.

Oven temp was measured with oven thermometer not the oven controls.

Do you feel I should temper again?

Mike

 

[matt denison]

Justlearning, From what you've written you have done a fine job with the frizzen. You don't need to retemper it and do not heat it to 450 degrees. Move on with your troubleshooting.

Small Siler locks were once sold as kits to anyone who had the money. Yours might be one of them. That would explain some of the small problems that you are having now. There's nothing that can't be fixed.
I would take the lock out of the gun, cock it and with the frizzen down and a flint in the cock snap it a few times. Is it sparking now? Get a feel for how fast and snappy it is out of the gun and then re install it with the screws in. Cock and snap it now and try to comprehend any difference. If it seems logy then you should investigate internal parts rubbing.

A sloppy frizzen screw fit won't necessarily affect sparking. You can tighten that up by re taping the frizz. screw to 6-32 from the 6-40 it is now. But that's still down the road. If your frizzen is closing tightly with only frizzen spring preasure then it's OK for now.

Your problem is probably a small one so don't give up on it. Good luck.

Matt Denison

 

[chuckpa]

Justlearning
You might want to take a trip to Dixion's ML Gun shop and ask their opinion. Try just using your thumb and forefinger to tighten the lock bolts. There is a product sold at Dixion's for in letting that is a blue color and cleans up with water.
I work in Allentown and would be happy to help you in anyway I can.

 

[LRB]

Motor oil is a very poor quenchant. Especially for 1095 steel, which is what that frizzen is. However, if you get good sparks, I'd say leave it alone. If you were to do it again, or ever do another, try warmed canola oil at about 130°, and quench at a red-orange heat. Agitate immediately when in the oil.