Smooth Bore Revolver

[Bad Karma]

Wonder if the groves didn't spiral but were just grooves parallel with the bore would it still meet the ATF rifling requirement? You could always make it very very slow twist, like one turn in a light year

Make it gain twist 1 in 100”…

 

[nkbj]

So, OK, nobody's shot a smooth bore revolver.

Never had a problem hitting what I shot at with a Daisy Red Ryder so why should an 1851 be any different?

 

[DixieTexian]

You'd probably need something like a dragoon to be able to load it. And don't have a conversion cylinder in your possession unless you also have another revolver that it fits in.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Trick shootists back in the day used pistols loaded with shot for flying targets…

@sheriff john is right. One of the most famous of these was Gordon W. "Pawnee Bill" Lillie. The smoothbored handguns were regular Colt single action revolvers, and they were evidently choked for shooting fine shot. The smoothbores and shot charges not only made it easier to hit aerial targets but were (somewhat) safer shooting in the populated areas where the wild west shows performed. I knew of this before, but was intrigued by this thread and researched it a little today. I found two auction listings for revolvers of this type, one in .44-40 and one in .45 Colt. Evidently, ammunition makers loaded shot cartridges in these calibers back in the day. Both of the guns I found, while apparently fully functional, were classed in the "Curio & Relic" category by the BATF, so they were legal to sell. They were not cheap... the .44-40 sold for $152,750 (not a typo) and the .45 went for $74, 750. I think forum rules prohibit posting links to active auction sales, but since these already sold, I hope there is no violation for posting these links:

RIA Smoothbore Colt .44

RIA Smoothbore Colt .45

Yep, these are cartridge guns, but they are pertinent to the discussion of smoothbored revolvers, and they are antiques. The write-ups that accompany the two guns are worth reading.

Anyway, those two are legal because of their Curio & Relic status, but if you produce a smoothbored cartridge revolver now, you may incur the wrath of the Feds. However, custom gunsmith Hamilton Bowen came up with a viable "workaround" by using a paradox bore in some of his conversion work. This is essentially a smoothbored barrel that is choked and rifled for a short section right at the muzzle. Mr. Bowen discussed this at some length in his book, The Custom Revolver, but here is a more abbreviated synopsis from one of his old catalogs:

Wonder if the groves didn't spiral but were just grooves parallel with the bore would it still meet the ATF rifling requirement? You could always make it very very slow twist, like one turn in a light year

I'm not sure, but I don't think it would float with the Feds. In communication with the BATF, Mr. Bowen was advised that "...the rifling configuration... must be effective, imparting sufficient spin to the bullet to stabilize the projectile and keep it oriented point-on at the target" (Bowen, 2001, The Custom Revolver, p. 237). However, since the discussion started with percussion revolvers, I don't know if these rules apply. As far as I know, smoothbored muzzleloading pistols (i.e. not revolvers) are bought, sold, and shot with no issues. Can we assume a smoothbored percussion revolver is legal? Personally, I try not to assume too much. I'm pretty sure you would not want to be caught with a cartridge conversion cylinder in it.

On the practical side of shooting a smoothbored percussion revolver, I would have some concerns about the shot charges in the unfired chambers working loose under recoil. I don't know if that is a realistic concern or not. Maybe a very heavy, tight-fitting over shot wad would do the trick. I don't know.

In any event, this is a fun topic for discussion. If any of you fellows, try it, by all means give us a field report!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[shorthair]

What point? You said "Makes me want to build an unmentionable smoothbore wheel gun." My response was to indicate that it can be done legally. What point did I miss? Forgive me if I am too stupid to understand, but God did not give everyone an incredible intellect.

The army did issue a number of unrifled barrels for the unmentionable service pistol. Not sure if you could claim it was distributed by the Government was in violation of it's own laws.

 

[smoothshooter]

Can actually be done legally, but you gotta register it.

Not for a black powder gun, in most states.

 

[new2bp]

The way the TC pistols in 357, 44, and 45lc handled it was a screw-on "choke" that had straight rifling, to stop in theory any spin imparted on the shot capsule (the TC HotShot rounds had plastic pill like capsules) and to cause it to fracture allowing the shot to disperse normally.

And it wasn't the GCA '68 it was the NFA '32 that stopped smoothbore centerfire below .50 OTHER than .410 as well as minimal overall length and barrel length for smoothbore and rifles

 

[smoothshooter]

@sheriff john is right. One of the most famous of these was Gordon W. "Pawnee Bill" Lillie. The smoothbored handguns were regular Colt single action revolvers, and they were evidently choked for shooting fine shot. The smoothbores and shot charges not only made it easier to hit aerial targets but were (somewhat) safer shooting in the populated areas where the wild west shows performed. I knew of this before, but was intrigued by this thread and researched it a little today. I found two auction listings for revolvers of this type, one in .44-40 and one in .45 Colt. Evidently, ammunition makers loaded shot cartridges in these calibers back in the day. Both of the guns I found, while apparently fully functional, were classed in the "Curio & Relic" category by the BATF, so they were legal to sell. They were not cheap... the .44-40 sold for $152,750 (not a typo) and the .45 went for $74, 750. I think forum rules prohibit posting links to active auction sales, but since these already sold, I hope there is no violation for posting these links:

RIA Smoothbore Colt .44

RIA Smoothbore Colt .45

Yep, these are cartridge guns, but they are pertinent to the discussion of smoothbored revolvers, and they are antiques. The write-ups that accompany the two guns are worth reading.

Anyway, those two are legal because of their Curio & Relic status, but if you produce a smoothbored cartridge revolver now, you may incur the wrath of the Feds. However, custom gunsmith Hamilton Bowen came up with a viable "workaround" by using a paradox bore in some of his conversion work. This is essentially a smoothbored barrel that is choked and rifled for a short section right at the muzzle. Mr. Bowen discussed this at some length in his book, The Custom Revolver, but here is a more abbreviated synopsis from one of his old catalogs:

View attachment 214359



I'm not sure, but I don't think it would float with the Feds. In communication with the BATF, Mr. Bowen was advised that "...the rifling configuration... must be effective, imparting sufficient spin to the bullet to stabilize the projectile and keep it oriented point-on at the target" (Bowen, 2001, The Custom Revolver, p. 237). However, since the discussion started with percussion revolvers, I don't know if these rules apply. As far as I know, smoothbored muzzleloading pistols (i.e. not revolvers) are bought, sold, and shot with no issues. Can we assume a smoothbored percussion revolver is legal? Personally, I try not to assume too much. I'm pretty sure you would not want to be caught with a cartridge conversion cylinder in it.

On the practical side of shooting a smoothbored percussion revolver, I would have some concerns about the shot charges in the unfired chambers working loose under recoil. I don't know if that is a realistic concern or not. Maybe a very heavy, tight-fitting over shot wad would do the trick. I don't know.

In any event, this is a fun topic for discussion. If any of you fellows, try it, by all means give us a field report!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I think a key phrase in the BATF definition is “ fixed ammunition “.
Another is “ prior to 1898 “.
A smoothbore percussion revolver requires no special license.
Put one of those cartridge conversion cylinders in it, and we are talking a whole ‘nuther situation.

 

[Flint Striker]

A bigger problem in a percussion revolver is that it relies on a really tight ball swaged into the chamber during loading. The balls have to stay seated during recoil to keep the cylinder from getting tied up, and to prevent space between the powder and projectile allowing a KB. If you are loading with shot, how can you get a tight enough fit to ensure this? I think a smoothbore single or double might be as good as it gets.

 

[nkbj]

The only smoothbore percussion revolver I've seen was in the late 1980's in northern Alabama. It had been beautifully machined from stainless, an adaptation of the 1858 Remington pattern with a lengthened frame, cylinder and chambers for loading bird shot and 12" barrel. The rightfully proud gentleman who created it told me it shot well with round ball also.

 

[B P Arn]

A bigger problem in a percussion revolver is that it relies on a really tight ball swaged into the chamber during loading. The balls have to stay seated during recoil to keep the cylinder from getting tied up, and to prevent space between the powder and projectile allowing a KB. If you are loading with shot, how can you get a tight enough fit to ensure this? I think a smoothbore single or double might be as good as it gets.

A copper gas check (as used on cast bullets designed for them) might fit tight enough to hold the shot in place.

 

[DixieTexian]

I think a key phrase in the BATF definition is “ fixed ammunition “.
Another is “ prior to 1898 “.
A smoothbore percussion revolver requires no special license.
Put one of those cartridge conversion cylinders in it, and we are talking a whole ‘nuther situation.

To further add to this, if you have a smooth bore revolver, you should make sure you don't own a conversion cylinder that fits it unless you also own a regular rifled revolver that it also fits. If the smooth bore revolver is the only one that you have that your conversion cylinder fits, the feds will see that as constructive intent and classify that as a short barreled shotgun. As long as you have a rifled revolver that fits your conversion cylinder, you should be covered I believe by uS v Thompson Center. However, as this case dealt with owning a TC contender pistol barrel while also having a rifle stock, a judge could get frisky and rule that it doesn't apply to smooth bores.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Under US Federal Law (GCA-68) non-muzzleloading handguns are prohibited from having a smooth bore.

I have no idea why the anti's who wrote the law did that - most likely because non-muzzleloading smoothbores/shotguns had to have a minimum barrel length of 18", and the dumb bunnies included smoothbore handguns because they (usually) had barrels shorter than 18".

Because it's not that hard to make a revolving shotgun..., and they were stopping short barreled shotguns.

LD

 

[hrt4me]

Smoothbore revolver or pistol = sawed off shotgun in federal terms. that's why.

ADK Bigfoot

actually an AOW (any other weapon)

 

[DixieTexian]

actually an AOW (any other weapon)

That's right, I forgot that for it to be considered a short barreled shotgun it must be designed to be fired from the shoulder.