Smooth bore rifle and 200 yd shot's

[faw3]

While in the hospital tis week I was reading a new I thought "sniper book" , most the time the history of snipeing is a few pages about pre 1800's ( Sniper a History of the U.S. Marksman.. martin Pegler) by page (of small print I've got to the Rev War. BUT this is the 3rd book in 6 month's that claims the hitting a man at 80 yards tops is just for military rifles, and sporting muskets with good sights could hit whatever at 200, and shooting a swinging iron pan at 150 yds was common fun. Ok so what kind of bore do these have, some of you will remember before 5 week hospital stay some months ago I tryed to get groups with a scoped 62 cal, now it seems I needed a smaller bore for one thing...help!! Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Ridge]

JPM claims to have watched a man shoot a brit at 250 yards with one shot out of his musket.

I guess the ball's gotta come down somewhere...

 

[Many Klatch]

I have shot at and hit on purpose 2 bear silhouette targets at 120 yards with my Brown Bess. Now one shot bounced off the ground in front of the bear and then hit it in the groin, but the target still fell over. I think my heavy barreled .60 smoothbore could do better but I haven't tried it yet.

With a lot of practice it is possible, but the accuracy really isn't there for precise sniper shooting like we understand it. Could I wound or kill at 150 yards, yeah probably, particularly if I had a chance to take 5 or 6 shots and the target didn't move.

As for hitting a frying pan at 150 yards? It must have been a really big frying pan.

Many Klatch

 

[TFoley]

Well, Sir - either it's a smooth-bore, or it's a rifle, cain't be both.

During the Revolutionary War, General Fraser of the crown forces was shot off his horse by a gentleman with a long rifled arm at a range said to be in excess of 200 yards.

tac

 

[Cutfingers]

At our pratice range is a gong of approx. 18 in. in diamter. Just for the heck of it I took a shot at it from 200 yds and made a hit with my 62 smoothbore. It can be done but consistency becomes the issue. I aimed about 2 ft. above the target and there was no wind to speak of.

 

Muskets, fowlers, guns, are smoothbores and of course rifles have those twisted grooves in them. However, here in the colonies there are firearms that have rifle furniture and rifle stock architecture but have no rifling. These are referred to as smooth rifles.

 

[tg]

During the Rev War period exactly what would a sporting musket with good sights be? sights were typical missing on military guns, civilian hunting guns sometimes had sights, Fusils/trade guns,or a smoothrilfe which would likely be the most accurate of the non rifled guns of the time. anyone have a pic of a sporting musket? the term is unfamiliar and somewhat contradictory I would think, as at that time a musket was typicaly a military arm with bayonet and no sights on the rear.

 

Sporting musket = Fowler......just my immediate impression when I read it.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

This is a 16 bore sporting gun and not a military musket but it is set up to shoot ball due to the rear sight.
http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/pub...ItemNo=2638875&iSaleNo=13738&iSaleSectionNo=1

 

[tg]

Could be a referece to rear sighted fowlers or hunting gunsbutone would think the longer range weapon would be the rifle hands down, I wonder how much may have been lost or tweeked in the telling or writing thru the generations and how much of an exageration factor is there, I have known many folks to talk of a deer taken at 300 yds with a modern scoped centerfire from places that I have hunted andknow there is only less than 200 yds across the clearcut.I have often hit a long gong at 150yds or so at a couple of trail walks with a sighted smoothie but would not put my life nor money on the shot..Well keep reading Fred and let us know when you have it sorted out.

 

[Birddog6]

Well, Sir - either it's a smooth-bore, or it's a rifle, cain't be both.

During the Revolutionary War, General Fraser of the crown forces was shot off his horse by a gentleman with a long rifled arm at a range said to be in excess of 200 yards.

tac

Well, by the time the story got to me it was 2000 yards...... :grin: So it was someplace between 20' an 2000 yards . :wink: it was Definately 2 something.....

 

[Rancocas]

It was Timothy Murphy who shot British General Fraser off his horse. No dispute there.

Tim was a Pennsylvania backwoodsman and a member of Daniel Morgan's riflemen.

The version I read said that Tim had a over/under,double barreled swivel rifle and that Tim had climbed up in a tree for a better view of the General. It said the shot was about 300 yards.
This was during the Battle of Saratoga, which the Americans won mainly due to Timothy's shot, and the heroics of Benedict Arnold.

Arnold, however, was miffed later when he didn't recieve the accolades that he thought he was due. Possibly, that is one of the reasons why he turned traitor.

After the war Murphy returned to his backwoods Pennslyvania farm and raised a large family. I read that he had a hardy wife who once stood off a ban of Indians when she was home alone with just the kids. :grin:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

British sources during the revolution said that a good American rifleman could hit a man in the head
at 200 yards and in the body at 300. Not every American with a rifle was a sharpshooter but there were enough of them to show up in British records after the war. You have to remember that American riflemen always shot off a rest position
if possible. Morgan's men were trained that way.
I often wonder how modern muzzleloading matches
evolved to off hand shooting! :thumbsup:

 

[faw3]

Ok add this.... by Col George Hanger Brit Army that seemed to have collected American firearms,tested them and talked to captured riflemen ect, it seems he was a fair shot himself. More than once he puts it this way " Empirical test have been taken" (by him) " Bearing in mind that a smoothbore musket, fireing a PROPERLY PATCHED BALL was probly capable of hitting a target the size of a man's head at 150 yards" none of these ws done with any mil musket, he goes on about how we used just one rear sight, not one that flippd up, like no one would belive him back home when a Brit wuld show just part of his head and get it shot off by a rifle! Intresting stuff. Fred :hatsoff: ( " To All Sportsman and Particularly Farmers and Gamekeepers" London 1814, may e little hard to find. :grin: )

 

[Many Klatch]

Hey Grizz, I read somewhere that General Washington had to issue an order to his riflemen to stop trying to shoot targets more than 200 yards off. He liked the fact that the rifle was a terror weapon and caused the British to keep their heads down.

I guess the boys would lay in the grass and take potshots at British sentries and officers from long distances. I imagine that some amount of betting and alcohol were involved at the same time. Washington had some concern that the British might lose some of their fear if the riflemen missed too often.

Many Klatch

 

[Many Klatch]

fw, I recently read a history of the battle of Breeds Hill (Bunker Hill). The Colonial shooters picked off most of the officers and sergeants and some of the British units lost a very high percentage of their forces. For years I read that their accuracy was due to the presence of rifles in the fort. It now seems that there weren't any rifles present during the battle. The Colonials were all armed with smoothbores. They just knew how to aim and load their guns.

Many Klatch

 

[paulvallandigham]

The colonial forces were also in trenches, or behind barricades, which protect them from British volley fire, and they were also shooting downhill, over rests at British troops who were climbing the hills to get within use of the Bayonet, the primary infantry weapon of the day. The lack of protection of assaulting troops continued right through WWI, where Army leaders expected 80% casualties in their ranks in any assault on a defended, enemy held Position. It was much the same in WWII, and the Army's casualty figures only began to drop when assault helicopters, and gunships, were able to take those positions from the air, or suppress enemy return fire on attacking soldiers.

The Reason Sgt. Alvin York's lone attack, and capture of 132 German Soldiers during WWI was so incredible was because so many of his company were already cut down by interlocking German Machine Gun fire. The fact that he killed and captures several machine gun positions, usually manned by at least 4 soldiers each, and then placed himself in a position so that he could kill anyone who moved in a long German Trenchline was, and still is, a remarkable series of brave, and calculated moves on his part. It took sure defeat, and turned it in to a major hole in the German lines, which Allies used to break through German defenses, where a stalemate had existed for months.

 

[tg]

"They just knew how to aim and load their guns."

The smoothrifle may have been a part of the equation attimes when these long shots with out rifles were made.

 

[faw3]

Not to mix this up more Anybody shoot at Friendship that isnt at the Winter shoot? I'd like to know what the smooth targets look like at what range ect, I called the only well known barrel maker I know and he said " 200 yards ? Sure". one with no choke or just a little it seems, barrel from 36 to 40 something inchs long and .003 or so from touchhole to muzzle AND a tight patch (Again that patch thing) I'm haveing 2nd thoughts about some of the guys that put tight 5 shots up here at 100yds. I did find out my 62 even with a scope wouldn't have done any good because it was choked long. Maybe I'll get a straight one and have the kid try it out since my shooting days seem to be over. :cursing: (he needs some years on him ,now days they all want scopes! :rotf: Fred :hatsoff: Ya me thinks since these are govt reports andthe guy is well known back then as a better than good shooter and did go out and capture guys and guns that shot really good...it must be a straight good barrel and shooter. But please add your thoughts.

 

[digger4070]

Hi all, this is my first post. While working up a hunting load for my rifle this year I was able to get a three shot group of 3 1/2 inches at 100 yards. Shooting from improvised rest. My rifle is a Chambers Smooth Rifle in .54 cal. with a 46 inch barrel using a .530 ball and a 20 thousandth patch with a 120 gr. of 3F. Also a few years ago at a Western Rendezvous in Colorado I watched my friend Lizard hit a steel bear target at 200 yards more than once. He was shooting a .54 smoothbore without a rear sight.

Digger