Smoothbore found in PA barn

[brew]

A friend of mine contacted me about a percussion smoothbore he found in his family barn in PA. He said his 75 year old uncle remembers seeing it when he was a boy but it's obviously older than that.

Apparently there are no identifiable marks on the gun so I figured I would post some photos to see if anyone could can provide any info.
Let me know what you think.

 

[buffcreekforge]

It appears to be a Civil War era Enfield type musket. Not being able to see the markings on the barrel or lock, I can't say with certainty, but it appears to be of that vintage. Bannerman's bought up large quantities of these old muskets and bored them out into economy shotguns. They were priced very low and made it possible for almost anyone to get one.

Your humble servant,

Black Dave

 

[brew]

Thanks for the info. My buddy realizes its in rough shape but would you happen to know what it might be worth to a collector?

 

[larry wv]

Don't know what its worth but make sure he doesn't devalue it by sanding or trying to make it look better. Larry

 

[R.C.BINGAMAN]

I, agree with Dave look at the tulip end of the rammer and the screws on the barrel bands, British Enfield written all over it.Looks like it could of possibly been cut down,If it is a bannerman re-work Im not familiar with the specifics,originally it would of been a 58cal. rifle of the americian civil war. this type of weapon was popular with both the north and south. also dont pretty it up, nice piece

 

[zimmerstutzen]

YEP AN 1853 eNFIELD WITH A BIT OF THE FORESTOCK CUT BACK OR PERHAPS A LNGER BARREL INSTALLED. It is most likely not a smothbore. Enfields had a peculiar three groove rifling that was deeper at the breech and got so shallow at the muzzle that it almost appears smooth. There are special tricks to cleaning such things up and a nice job can probably be done without destroying the value. But it takes specialized know how and patience. There are pros who can do it. Heck it might even be a shooter.

You didn't say where in Pa, but alot of Pa Civil war vets took their guns along home at discharge. My Brother has the Pottsdam Musket our great great uncle from Berks County, PA carried in the War of Northern Aggression. (Ancestor fought for the North... Folks weren't as smart back then.) My farm was built by a guy who was injured at Gettysburg, mustered out for his injury and poor SOB had to walk 45 miles home, yet he was fit enough to start building a house when he got home. I am just 7 miles South of the Wrightsville Bridge site. I found a 1933 Civil War veterans commemorative medal under the attic floorboards when installing insulation. (Not nearly as exciting a find)

 

[Tumblernotch]

Could you get a better picture of the lock? There appears to be stamping on it. This could possibly be a Cook and Brother rifle.

 

[Dphar]

Looks like a British Rifle musket that has been bored for shot.

Dan

 

[fluggies4]

It does have the appearance of an Enfield type, possibly the barrel was shortened and the forearm altered to match. The sling swivel hole on the triggerguard would suggest it was originally a 3-band. The typical 2-band rifle had the rear swivel mounted in the stock behind the triggerguard. Are the buttplate, triggerguard and nosecap steel or very tarnished brass? There should be markings on the lockplate. Also the sights are missing...are there mounting holes for the rear sight on the barrel?

 

[brew]

I forwarded your questions to the gun owner and here is what he had to say so far.

"oh...all very good questions.
the butt plate I believe is brass, however the trigger and other metal seems
to be steel.
there is a mounting point for the front sight however not sure about the rear."

I will try and answer more tonight when I get home.

I love this...and I bet you do to ;-)

We will keep you updated as we get more info. Let us know if there is anything else we should be looking for that may help identify this treasure.

 

[Bob Riegl]

:v I have one of those Bannermann's specials. As a college student I used to go to Lexington Ave. NYC in the 69 Street area. Bannerman had a little shop and I used to blow my ROTC check most every month there wasn't a College dance at Fordham U. That's where I bought my Tower Enfield for $19.95, which is still in my collection.It's in an excellent condition and was fired twice by me. :thumbsup: "Doc"

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

What is the length of the barrel? Stock looks like it has had some work done behind the brass nosecap. Not bad looking though for "untouched". I like it....

 

[Tumblernotch]

Could you get a better picture of the lock? There appears to be stamping on it. This could possibly be a Cook and Brother rifle.

I take back what I said about a possible Cook & Brother. After I got to looking closer, I can see that it is a P53 Enfield that has been cut back. If you look at the distance between the lock panel and the lower band, it is shorter than the distance on a 2 band or Sergeant's Rifle. and of course as mentioned earlier, the lower swivel was guard mounted. The barrel wall looks a little thick at the muzzle and the distance between the nosecap and the muzzle a little too much.

It looks as though there is a stamped mark between the hammer and the front lock screw. Most likely, you'll find the word "Tower" and a date below it. From the looks of things, this may not be visible. There should also be a crown behind the hammer to the rear. There should not be a VR under it if used in the CW or any Broad Arrow marks. The barrel will have the usual proofs on the left side of the breech and some viewer's marks underneath. The inside of the lock should also have the assembler's mark as well as the lockmaker if this is a Birmingham Enfield. If you can take the rifle apart, look in the barrel channel for the stockmaker's stamp. You may also find one in the ramrod channel. This all depends on whether the metalwork is too rusty and what shape the wood is in underneath. The bands should be iron, everything else brass. Brass bands are something the reproduction makers came up with.

You may find Belgian proofmarks. This is because many were made in Liege on contract. One clue here would be V+R under the Crown on the lock. There were also a little over 10,000 made in Windsor, Vermont by Robbins & Lawrence in a British contract. On these, as well as early P53's the upper band was held by a spring rather than by a clamping band which is the most familiar.

Whichever it is, this is a great find. The next time I visit the in-laws in PA (between Gettysburg and Chambersburg), I oughta go rummaging around in some barns. :wink:

You might also look for a name on the ramrod as well. Many were marked a few inches from the tip.

 

[brew]

I believe you are exactly right.
Check out these links

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/markings_p53.htm

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/confederate-marked-enfield-rifle.htm

Sounds like you really know your guns.
Thanks for the info

 

[Ephraim]

I have a few lock plates the same shape they are stamped tower.
Ephraim

 

[Toomuch_36]

You didn't say where in Pa, but alot of Pa Civil war vets took their guns along home at discharge. My Brother has the Pottsdam Musket our great great uncle from Berks County, PA carried in the War of Northern Aggression. (Ancestor fought for the North... Folks weren't as smart back then.) My farm was built by a guy who was injured at Gettysburg, mustered out for his injury and poor SOB had to walk 45 miles home, yet he was fit enough to start building a house when he got home. I am just 7 miles South of the Wrightsville Bridge site. I found a 1933 Civil War veterans commemorative medal under the attic floorboards when installing insulation. (Not nearly as exciting a find)

Finding a confederate musket most anywhere in Pa. would not be unheard of, remember J.E.B. Stewart advanced as far north as Poter Co.

Toomuch
.........
Shoot Flint

 

[Steve Boyleston]

How did you put these photos on without photobucket? TG Pinyone

 

[Don]

I seem to recall reading that many surplus rifles from the civil war were bored out and sold as cheap single shot scatterguns. I even saw them in reproduction Sears catalogs selling for 2 or 3 dollars. Yours looks like it could be one of those surplus guns.

Don

 

[Tumblernotch]

I seem to recall reading that many surplus rifles from the civil war were bored out and sold as cheap single shot scatterguns. I even saw them in reproduction Sears catalogs selling for 2 or 3 dollars. Yours looks like it could be one of those surplus guns.

Don

Some were done that way. Especially '42 Model smoothbore muskets. They were often cut down to halfstocks. I have seen some M1863 Type II's done the same way. Bannerman's sold quite a few of these. However, this one wasn't cut down the same way. I'd say most likely the barrel was damaged near the muzzle and someone just simply cut it off and dressed the forestock to match.

 

[Don]

Come to think of it the ones I saw were of the Springfield variety. I don't remember any Enfield patterns.

Don