So, how did the 40S&W bullet go in my .40 ca GM?

[Jarikeen]

The 40S&W bullet mould (.401 cal) arrived from the States yesterday (thanks Lock stock & barrel). I quickly moulded up some bullets last night to try on the range today. Moulding 'maxies' takes a little more finese than moulding RB, so I found.

This 40S&W are inteference fit in my .40 cal GM barrel. They load nicely.

Tried with and without paper patching, and with and without overpowder wads. All were lubed with a 50/50 beeswax and lard mix.

I had great hopes for the paper patching, but they shot all over the place. The deep (.012) rifling cut the paper to pieces. I do understand that this is a RB barrel, but I wanted to experiment.

The other bullets without paper patching shot better. 5 inch groups (at 50 yards benchrest) without the wad and 2.5 - 3 inch groups with the wads. Still not great though. Increased the powder from 40 to 45 grains showed some promise as did using a double wad. Unfortuantely I ran out of bullets and time. None of the bullets tumbled.

My wads where just on 40 cal, but I think 42 cal might be better. Also perhaps some 'filler' between the wad and bullet 'maxi' might be a go.

I'm thinking that a 41 mag bullet might have been better, but it might become damaged whilst being engraved my the rifling.

I will continue to experiment and let you know how it goes. If you have any more suggestions let me know. This could be a hunting option for you .40 cal shooters that require by reqs a >170 grain projectile for deer hunting.

This load certainly recoils more than PRB.

 

[roundball]

Interesting...do I assume these 40S&W bullets are hard cast lead?

Thanks for sharing...

 

[Russianblood]

Interesting...do I assume these 40S&W bullets are hard cast lead?

He bought the mould so he could cast them with pure lead if he so chooses.

 

[dlemaster]

That brings to mind an interesting story.
A friend and I operated a reloading business in the early 70's, so we had a lot of componets around. We were behind the shop shooting muzzle loaders one day. He had one of those very cheap CVA rifles assembled from a kit that cost about $59.00. He ran out of .445 round balls but didn't want to stop shooting, so went in and got some .45 cal cast pistol bullets. The bullets were .451 as I recall. We tried them and they actually shot much better than the PRB did. On loading the were very lightly engraved by the rifling, but on firing they expanded and filled the grooves, as you could clearly see the rifling marks left on the recovered bullets.
After that, that is all he would shoot in that rifle. He did manage to kill a couple of deer with it.

Regards, Dave

 

[rkeltner]

as a related endevor, i have done somewhat extensive work withplain lead cast pistol bullets in my CVA .45 cal. kentucky rifle, and the results were very satisifying. i have both the lee 155 gr. semi-wadcutter(no longer in production) , and the 255 gr. flat point round nose. fired from a prb twist of 1 in 66, the accurracy was very encouraging without a base wad. i haven't tried with a base wad. the big surprise with this experiment was the fact that the 255 shot so well. that bullet with 70 or 80 gr. of 2f makes a fairly decent deer load out to 80 yds or so. havent tried beyond that!

 

[rkeltner]

so you paid 59 for your kit in the 70s? i got my kit for 35 in the 90s(i love yard sales). at any rate, since i've start using soft lead pistol bullets, i've all but stopped using round balls!

 

[arquebus]

Jarikeen, I think you're on the right track. You might want to try some Cream Of Wheat (Semolina) between the bullet & powder, as it tends to seal the bore a bit tighter than a wad upon firing. I think 50-55gns of 3Fg might be a good load as it will help bump those bullets up.....as you need to overcome that deep PRB rifling.

 

[roundball]

Interesting...do I assume these 40S&W bullets are hard cast lead?

He bought the mould so he could cast them with pure lead if he so chooses.

I understand...I was asking with respect to avoiding leading at rifle velocities

 

[gmww]

I was thinking the same thing about hard cast vs pure. Another suggestion. Instead of paper, wrap the bullets with Teflon tape and see how that works. I did it yesterday with some slightly undersized .54 bullets I cast. Worked like a champ. It was snug going in vs simply sliding it. My groups tighten up too. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu are not going to patch a bullet with paper thick enough to fill those deep grooves. PP bullets are normally shot out of barrels with groove no more than .004-.006". You might try the PP bullets again, in combination with OP wads that will seal the grooves, to prevent gases from tearing the paper all apart. With the right powder charge, that just might make a terrific load. BTW, the edges of the lands are Suppose to cut slits in the paper so that the paper comes off the bullet when it leaves the muzzle and hits the air.

Do usen a OP wad that is large enough in diameter to fill your grooves. That means measuring you groove diameter, and ordering the OP wads according to the dimension you get.

40 grains of FFFg powder is the starting base for your load. You probably will find that 50 grains will shoot better, but you will begin to notice some recoil. Its more a shove, than a sharp smack as you experience shooting smokeless powder cartridge rifles, but it is there. YOu do need to get the velocity up to stabilize that 170 grain cast bullet, because only about half its length is touching the lands. The .41 magnum boys are firing that weight bullet out at 1500+ fps. from their handguns. With a heavier, longer bullet( 200-220 grain bullets) , in .41, you can get good accuracy at slower velocities.

 

[guncobbler]

Paul said: "YOu do need to get the velocity up to stabilize that 170 grain cast bullet, because only about half its length is touching the lands."

Paul - I think that it is the overall length of the bullet that dictates the need for higher velocities for stabilization not the length of rifling engagement. After all a round ball has a very short engagement length and needs the slowest twist. A bullet flying thru the air needs the same amount of rotation velocity to stabilize it no matter how much of it's length is engraved. Am I missing anything here? GC

 

[Jarikeen]

I have been casting with wheel weight lead. I too was concerned with possible leading. The projectiles are lubricated with the beeswax/lard mix, and I have continued with my habit of wiping between shots. Hope all these thing help.

 

[Jarikeen]

How much by volume of cream of wheat should I use? Could this material become abrasive?

 

[Jarikeen]

What is a maximum safe load using a 175 grain projectile in a .40 cal barrel. I've generally gone with the

 

[arquebus]

In my rifle-musket, shooting Minies, I use approximately 2/3 by volume of CofW to powder. There's no precise formula, but I've found it works well with alot of solid & hollowbase bullets, plus it helps keep fouling pretty consistent. I doubt that it would have any appreciable abrasive effect on the barrel.

 

[paulvallandigham]

GC: Those pistol bullets are designed to be " accurate " only for short range combat distance after leaving a 5" or shorter barrel. The main reason for them existing is to reduce recoil and muzzle jump on the SA pistols, so that the shooter can get his sights back on target for his next, rapid fire shot,

When these bullets get out to 75-100 yds, their light weight begins to work against them, compared to the heavier 210-220 bullets, and groups open up. The higher velocity is needed to get these bullets to the target before they slow down so much that they begin to be affected by winds. That 170 grain bullet out of a .40 S&W might reach 900 fps, or even 1000 fps, with the right loads. Out of a rifle, it should gain an additional 200 fps, with no change in powder. In a BP rifle, I would want it to be going over 1200 fps., and preferrably over 1500 fps for best accuracy at 100 yds. At that higher velocity, it should also do quite well out to 200 yds. The long barreled .41 Magnum pistols and revolvers used in the Metallic Silhouette shooting matches will send a light bullet like this at 1500-1700 fps. and have no trouble knocking down the 42 lb. ram targets at 200 meters. They are referred to as "Screamers", because of the muzzle blast these loads leave. You won't experience quite the same thing out of a longer barreled ML rifle, however, Nor the recoil forces that such a load gives in a 2.5 lb handgun.