Southern revolutionary rifle

[Spyridon1219]

Which style/s rifle would most closely represent those used by southerners (GA,TN,NC)during the revolutionary war?

 

[Stophel]

In my opinion, there simply weren't all that many of them... especially in Georgia and Tennessee (Tennessee didn't really even exist yet! :grin: ). North Carolina... some... it's a touchy subject. The "John Thomas Rifle" (shown in Rifles of Colonial America, and numbered 121), which was unfortunately "improved" in England, MAY be a South Carolina rifle of the early Revolutionary War period.

It's hard enough to find Revolutionary and earlier period southern rifles from Virginia...

 

[Zonie]

Just guessing here but I think the shape of the stock butt would be similar to the later Southern rifles.

The most noticeable difference between the AWI guns and the later ones would be the width of the stock butt and the curvature of the butt plate.

The AWI era rifles in Penn had wide, relatively flat butt plates and I would expect guns made further South in the Colonies would be similar.

 

[Tom Compton]

I read the op to mean "what was USED by the Southerners during the AWI" vs what were made in those colonies then.
TC

 

[steve free]

In Shumway's book Rifles of Colonial America Vol. Two, there is a section entitled Rifles of Southern Origin, which includes the "Faber Rifle" and a couple of others. I recently had a rifle built based on these guns, which is in the photo section of this forum. Hope this helps. :v

 

[Stophel]

It is my unsubstantiated belief that merchants would buy rifles in Pennsylvania (primarily Lancaster), ship them south and sell them. :idunno: It is NOT something I have researched, so don't take my word for it.

There is the claim that many participants in the battle of King's Mountain were carrying "Deckard" (presumably Dickert) rifles. But, I'm having a hard time finding any ACTUAL period source of this, finding only one book after another parrotting this factoid over the years. :hmm:

I believe that most people in the southern colonies/States (indeed, in most colonies, outside S.E. Pennsylvania) would generally not have been rifle armed, instead carrying smoothbore guns (generally imported) of various types. Probably mostly "Carolina guns" or old muskets. We do know that rifles were imported from England and Germany also.

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

I just picked up a first issue copy of John Bivens Jr. Long rifles of North Carolina from the used book store. This would be a must read to help you formulate your own opinions in all your questions, I believe due to the low numbers of surviving examples as others have mentioned there will always be unanswered questions and it could be a touchy subject due to conclusions made by valid personal opinions. That being said, certain characteristics in the surviving examples in Bivens research include long tangs one tang in the book extends through to the butt plate and others to the comb. One example shows a rifle with five ramrod thimbles. I have also heard that southern rifles used cherry and walnut instead of maple. Bivens includes copies of advertisements and news articles in the book, one of which reports the confiscation of at least 1500 rifles by the Brittish army. Bivens gives reference to a single NC rifle housed in a Brittish collection, it is my opinion there are most likely more scattered through out England that were taken back as trophies. It is also my opinion many NC and SC rifles were confiscated , lost etc. during the War between the states . It is also my opinion that as individual craftsmen of the time then and now, practice the infusion of design elements into their work based on the expectations of the buying public as well as necessity and function. I would design my rifles based on practicality general acceptability of style and availability of materials based on the overall average of the information we have left to go on and if people don't like that well that's why there is more than one rifle out there :grin:

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This question has no concrete answer. However, we do know that the area around Lancaster and much of eastern, PA produced a lot of guns, their influence was widespread including much of Virginia and probably NC. We know that some rifle corps, including southern groups such as Morgan's, purchased rifles from around Lancaster and Reading, PA. Consequently, it is probably a pretty good bet that some and perhaps many southern riflemen carried PA-made or styled guns during the Rev War. Styles and rifles made by local southerners during that period are far more speculative in nature. The bottom line is that you probably cannot go wrong with an early Lancaster or eastern PA gun. If you have your heart set on some specific southern style, well you will have to do a bit more imagining and speculating.

dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I believe that most people in the southern colonies/States (indeed, in most colonies, outside S.E. Pennsylvania) would generally not have been rifle armed, instead carrying smoothbore guns (generally imported) of various types. Probably mostly "Carolina guns" or old muskets. We do know that rifles were imported from England and Germany also

I agree especially when one gets below into SC and GA. I wonder why, if rifles were as prevalent South of Virginia, that the Continental Congress did not call for rifle companies from those colonies, as they did PA, MD and VA?

LD

 

[kodiakmarine]

You might check out the ALR Virtual Library and Museum online. I am currently using my smart phone and viewing the images with it is difficult, but you should find a couple of examples there. IIRC, most examples are brass mounted with English locks, but it has been a while and my memory is not quite what it once was. I also believe the first rifle makers in the Carolinas were Moravians moving south from Virginia, maybe.

 

[Captjoel]

My answer to this question is for all practical purposes just another question. It is believed by some that such existing rifle's like "the brass barreled rifle" came from Virginia during the Rev War era. These beliefs are for the most part highly speculative and until more info or a placed and dated rifle is found, will just remain interesting conjecture. Personally, I believe that there are several unsigned and unmarked specimens around and shown in a number of books that loosely fit into the southern category and could be early enough. Now for the million dollar question: Does anyone here think that the Brass Barreled Rifle is a ca. 1779-83 Virginia made rifle? :hmm:

 

[rich pierce]

I think the BBR (brass barreled rifle) came to Wallace Gusler for restoration. Would be nice to know where it was first found. I believe it has a date 1771 scratched into it. The rifle is sure unusual.

There is a walnut stocked early rifle in Rifles of Colonial America collected in Virginia. It has seen a lot of use. I believe it is #124. A dandy, fairly plain rifle. Another intriguing rifle collected in Virginia is a walnut stocked "black rifle" with forged iron furniture. Wallace Gusler estimated Rev War period and the style, architecture and lock support that idea.

 

[Captjoel]

Thank you Rich for chiming in on my post! Good to hear from you! Unfortunately, I once had a complete description and current history on the Brass Barreled Rifle that was written by Wallace Gussler along with pictures when it was listed on Cowen's Auction site a couple of years ago. It has mysteriously disappeared from my files. Just from memory, the gun was acquired by Wallace from Joe Kindig jr. several years after he did the restoration work on it for Joe. Interesting as to how he melted brass from 18th century candle sticks to lengthen the barrel! A while ago, I picked up a contemporary longrifle that was made very loosely around the traits of the BB rifle and sold as an early Virginia piece. The builder was Ryan McNabb from Tennessee.

 

[Artificer]

I believe that most people in the southern colonies/States (indeed, in most colonies, outside S.E. Pennsylvania) would generally not have been rifle armed, instead carrying smoothbore guns (generally imported) of various types. Probably mostly "Carolina guns" or old muskets. We do know that rifles were imported from England and Germany also

I agree especially when one gets below into SC and GA. I wonder why, if rifles were as prevalent South of Virginia, that the Continental Congress did not call for rifle companies from those colonies, as they did PA, MD and VA?

LD

Most likely because there were MORE than enough Riflemen in the colonies from which they were to draw the Rifle Companies.

In my notes I have a fragmentary documentation stating that there were so many Riflemen who WANTED to volunteer for the Rifle Companies in Virginia, they had to come up with a way to sort them down. So they came up with chalking a nose on a board and having the men shooting at it from 150 yards away. This from the Virginia Gazette of 25 September 1775.

My problem is I do not have access to the Virginia Gazette archives, so I can't give an exact quote for the above information.

Also working on some quotes on SC Riflemen.

Gus

 

[kodiakmarine]

It is hard to find original pieces of the revolution from the south, and not nough to show a trend. As far as I can tell, the southern mountain rifle style with iron furniture and English lock had not yet been established. The only rifle from the revolution that I know was carried by a settler from the southern mountains was a brass mounted rifle from I believe Pennsylvania or Maryland. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

The earliet rifles I have seen from the Carolinas had brass mountings and English locks, but are from the first decade of the nineteenth century.

I read somewhere that tbe first rifle makers in North Carolina were Moravians from Virginia during the 1750s. If this is true, then their rifles would more than likely resemble the Virginia rifles of that period. I wish I could be of more help. Good luck. - John

 

[Gene L]

It is my unsubstantiated belief that merchants would buy rifles in Pennsylvania (primarily Lancaster), ship them south and sell them. :idunno: It is NOT something I have researched, so don't take my word for it.

There is the claim that many participants in the battle of King's Mountain were carrying "Deckard" (presumably Dickert) rifles. But, I'm having a hard time finding any ACTUAL period source of this, finding only one book after another parrotting this factoid over the years. :hmm:

I believe that most people in the southern colonies/States (indeed, in most colonies, outside S.E. Pennsylvania) would generally not have been rifle armed, instead carrying smoothbore guns (generally imported) of various types. Probably mostly "Carolina guns" or old muskets. We do know that rifles were imported from England and Germany also.

The term "Deckard" appears in one well-researched fiction I've read, from the Revolution," for what it's worth. If it's "Dickerd" then the author made a rare mistake. My impression is the Deckard referred to in the book was made in Maryland. Also, it's possible they may have been a type rather than a brand, kinda like "Winchester" came to be.

 

[Stophel]

Now for the million dollar question: Does anyone here think that the Brass Barreled Rifle is a ca. 1779-83 Virginia made rifle? :hmm:

I have seen absolutely NOTHING ever given as evidence that the brass barreled rifle was made in Virginia. Perhaps there is something, but if so, it definitely isn't common knowledge. There is nothing about the gun that relates to any region that I can see, other than it was obviously built by a German gunsmith (odds alone puts it in PA). It could be from Virginia, who knows, but a proclamation that it did does not make it so.

A somewhat similar thing can be said for "Gun #42". Could it have been made in North Carolina? Possibly, but how could one tell whether it was from Bethabara or Bethlehem??? With gunsmiths moving back and forth, yes, it COULD be from either location. All of the gun's features relate very well with all the other known and presumed Bethlehem/C.S. guns, and even the patchbox is right in line with other box lids from the region. In my opinion, it is fine to say that it COULD be from N.C., but a dogmatic attribution to a specific maker in North Carolina is unwarranted at this time without something concrete to back it up.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Loyalist Dave Said:

Quote:

I believe that most people in the southern colonies/States (indeed, in most colonies, outside S.E. Pennsylvania) would generally not have been rifle armed, instead carrying smoothbore guns (generally imported) of various types. Probably mostly "Carolina guns" or old muskets. We do know that rifles were imported from England and Germany also

I agree especially when one gets below into SC and GA. I wonder why, if rifles were as prevalent South of Virginia, that the Continental Congress did not call for rifle companies from those colonies, as they did PA, MD and VA?

LD

Most likely because there were MORE than enough Riflemen in the colonies from which they were to draw the Rifle Companies.

I am also wondering if it might be more like a colonial stereotype of the time? Perhaps it simply has carried forward today....for we assume often that our stereotypes are new inventions?

What I mean is...., "Congress" authorized those rifle units, and called for them from three states. I doubt that it was because there were so many volunteers from VA, because those large numbers of troops came AFTER the call to form units, and Congress probably had no idea they would get such a response.

And let us not forget that militia musters prior to the AWI from VA often had militia officers complaining about the number of men who claimed they owned no gun at all...., so why expect a huge surge from the Virginians?

So perhaps the fellows who approved of and called for the formation of those units, held an inaccurate belief that only from PA and Maryland (along it's northern border) one would find large numbers of riflemen, AND of course some from the Germanic communities along the blue ridge?

The representatives from NC, SC, and GA might have mentioned to Congress there were good numbers of riflemen in their colonies, OR..., perhaps they were content to keep that information to themselves, and those riflemen would then be available to defend their home colonies/states.

Thus the idea of the time was that riflemen were mostly from PA, MD, and VA, and then during the AWI that gets enforced..., and is perpetuated as time goes on. The Pennsylvania long rifle, becomes the Kentucky long rifle [but it's made in PA]....and so on and so on and so on.....

:idunno:

LD

 

[Nativearizonan]

The inhabited part of what is now known as Tennessee, at the time of the AWI, was a natural extension of VA. All the ridges and valleys, and all the natural trails ran SW from the Shenandoah Valley to the headwaters of the Tennessee River. There is a huge range of mountains between NC and TN, which would have been a major obstacle for shipping anything between them. There was no continuous settlement activity between those in present day TN and GA. Georgia was populated from the Atlantic Ocean up, with a lot of middle to northern GA not yet populated. Anything reaching the populated areas of GA either went through SC or went by sea, most likely by sea. So GA rifles could have come from anywhere, TN rifles came through VA, unless they were carried over the mountains as personal property by individuals from NC. NC rifles would be the most likely to be produced within the state, but were not likely to have gone from NC to either TN or GA in any real quantity that early.

There were plenty of riflemen in present day TN, given the small population at the time. They were the "over the mountain men" that made such a difference in the Battle of Kings Mountain. That area was right on the trail from VA to KY and the whole Tennessee River valley that would later be settled. It was full of riflemen, and full of rifles from Pennsylvania, no doubt.

 

[Artificer]

Dave,

You made some interesting points, as always.

I don't believe it was coincidence that the Representatives of the Colonies had a pretty good idea of how many riflemen they had in their respective colonies. They may have gotten that information from the reports on the annual Militia Musters or from their own personal or others' experience. They may have gotten that information from newspapers. They may have gotten that information from FIW Veterans, if they were not FIW Veterans themselves. They certainly would have known of the HUGE numbers of deer skins that were taken in the western parts of their colonies after the FIW, as it was the number two "Money Making" thing in their economies behind tobacco (at least in Virginia to be sure).

Native Arizonan also brings up an interesting point we don't often think about today. Many of the Colonies western borders were considered to go as far west as there was land. I remember seeing a reproduction of an early to mid 18th century map at Colonial Williamsburg that showed this, but can't find it online. It was almost amazing how much territory was granted to and/or claimed by Virginia.

Of course, Maryland got screwed by Virginia and Pennsylvania in that regard, though. Pennsylvania's western border was East of Fort Pitt and Virginia claimed the land west of there as well. Matter of fact, Virginia claimed most of what is now Kentucky and Tennessee; but also Ohio, Indiana, much of the Old Northwest Territory and more. This is why George Rogers Clark went to take Vincennes during the AWI. I still get a chuckle how early Virginian's got the King/s to go along with their gigantic land claims and schemes.

I know SC had some Riflemen in the AWI but not nearly as many VA, PA and MD. My speculation is that as far away as SC was from the other colonies, how much smaller was their total population and the importance of Charlestown as a harbor; meant they figured they could not draw as many soldiers from that Colony ”“ let alone riflemen. I also think GA had such a small population and were the furthest South, that they would need to concentrate their forces in their own defense. This is not to suggest that I think there were anywhere close to large numbers of Riflemen in either SC or GA, though. Still, Spence has posted a fair number of advertisements in SC where rifles were advertised, so there definitely had to have been some interests in rifles prior to the AWI.


Gus