Spanish Miquelet De Erraduras

[rickystl]

Dave: THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!! I don't have the research library to identify these stamps. I was going by what the previous owner mentioned. So, DOUBLE THANK YOU for the identification!!! I owe you one. :hatsoff: Rick.

 

[rickystl]

While we wait for Charles to send me additional photos, here is a Spanish lock I own. It is rifle/fowler size. Note the hammer engages on the heel, has the uncovered frizzen spring, and uses a standard type top screw vs the ring. Also has a brass pan. All parts are original to the lock - even the thin lead holding the flint in the jaws. (flint is new). The brass pan tells me the lock is post 1800. Unfortunately, there are no marks/stamps of any kind. Would like to have yours and Miqueleter's opinion of this lock.
Sure wish Charles would send me more photos. Inquiring minds want to know. :haha: Rick.

 

[miqueleter]

Ricky, that lock is quite similiar to the standard Spanish military locks. Spanish military locks often eliminated the jaw screw ring, using a big hole in the ball and/or no hole at all. As is the case with other countries military arms, the brass pan was in much vogue. Go here to see the similarities: http://asoac.org/bulletins/91_benninghoff_spanish.pdf

 

[rickystl]

Thanks Miqueleter! for the help. Much appreciated. Rick.

 

[rickystl]

Charles just sent me some additional photos. The patina on the frizzen spring seems to match the rest of the lock. But look closely. Is that a "roller" on the frizzen spring? Rick.

 

[miqueleter]

Ricky et al

Wow, what a difference a good photo makes to the discussion. Jumping to conclusions almost always bites me on the bottom every time. Not only is this lock not butchery, it is ingenious. That frizzen spring, I suspect, was designed that way because there is very little room on the fore end of the lock plate to place the spring in the usual fashion. And the maker liked to use rollers-one on the frizzen spring fulcrum point and one on the heel end of the mainspring. Looks like a gold-lined vent as well. Fascinating!

 

[rickystl]

Good catch!! I didn't even notice the roller on the heel of the mainspring!! Double rollers!! Never seen one like this. Might this date the gun arounnd 1820-ish? Maybe a bit latter? If the internals of the lock are in good condition, I'll bet this lock really operates smooth, and fast.
Overall, this is a really great and interesting piece. And oh so Spanish looking. :haha: Wonderful gun in great condition. I only wish it would grow legs so it could walk to my house. :haha: That lock is super neat! Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Luke MacGillie]

Interesting topic, especialy for someone who studies the history of words.

Herradura is horseshoe today, but going back, it really means just strong iron, related to other words like herramienta, which is "Tool"

 

[miqueleter]

Ricky, 1820's seems right. Sort of a Spanish Best much like an English Best. Must have had his hands on a Manton or Egg fowler at some time, eh

 

[WeaponsCollector]

Here are a few things I noticed about Charles64's “rifle” (is it really rifled?). The butt of the stock is of a style popular in Catalan. The barrel seems to be pinned with a bolt. Early Spanish arms usually use wire pins, later weapons added barrel bands. Eventually barrel bands alone became the norm. Also you may have noticed that the tag screw enters from below just behind the trigger. A few makers started using wheels on the mainspring around 1800 to reduce friction and make for a faster ignition. I can't remember seeing one on the frizzen spring of a Miquelet lock before.

Finally I present to you my pride an joy, a patilla (foot of the animal /rooster) style llave española (Spanish Lock), aka Miquelet, that belonged to my father. He purchased it from Dr. Lavin in 1997.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Beautiful locks everyone!! The lock on Charle's gun is a little jewel. Spanish and Portuguese locks were so simple, sturdy, and reliable. Wonderful blending of technology and art, which is why they fascinate me so.

dave

 

[rickystl]

WeaponsCollector: That is a beautiful, early miquelet lock!!! And that it came from the James Lavin collection makes it double great!!
I am so glad you posted that photo. Do you have a pic of the inside of that lock? The reason for my question will become obvious in my next Post. Thanks so much for this photo!! :hatsoff: Rick.

 

[rickystl]

On page 202 of The Rifle Shoppe catalog, Item #614 is titled: "James Lavin's 1650's Miquelet Lock".
The photo in the catalog shows the lock in Kit form only. I recently purchased this lock complete from TRS. (I ordered and received the lock in only one week, which must be a record turn-around for TRS. I had the help from an influential friend, but that's a story for another Post).
The reason I Post this lock, is mine not a dead-ringer for your original lock? Looks like your original lock was used as the pattern for this replica!!
I plan on having a long gun built using this lock. Problem is, I can't locate a pic of a pre-17th Century Spanish long gun. My big question is: Did the Catalan style butt stock exist in the late 1600's? Thanks for any help. Thought you would like to see the completed replica. The lockplare and other non-hardened castings came unpolished?? But that's an easy fix. And I guess I should be grateful just receiving this lock considering TRS's reputation. :haha: Rick.

 

[WeaponsCollector]

Hi Ricky,

I guess you already know, yes this is the original. Dr. Lavin loaned it to the Rifle Shoppe so that they could make a casting. He was happy with the result with the exception of the main spring. Here are a few more photos for comparison. You can't easily see it here but the battery has a removable face.

I know that the Catalan style butt exist in the second quarter of the seventeenth century, but the toe was less pronounced. (see Lavin's History of Spanish Firearms page 177)

 

[rickystl]

OHHHHH, thank you so much for the additional photos. I've saved these photos of the original in my folder along with the replica. And, thanks for the information on the Catalan butt stock. I found a used edition of Dr. Lavin's book on Amazon and just now ordered it. Don't know why I waited so long to purchase it? :idunno: Dr. Lavin would have liked to see the lock on Charlie's gun with the roller on the frizzen spring.
Again, thank you!! It's great you own the original now. :hatsoff: Rick.

 

[WeaponsCollector]

I wanted to upload a few photos that made the removable battery face more obvious. If you look closely you will see that the face is dovetailed into the battery. Look even closer and you may be able to see that the channels on the face are shallower near the point of contact with the flint.

 

[dave_person]

Beautiful, wonderful lock! Thanks for the photos. It really shows how advanced the Spaniards were and also how little wood must be removed behind the lockplate, preserving strength in the stock.

dave

 

[old gun]

First a thank you for everyone who replied to my request for more info on the the early 19th century Spanish half stock fowler. Especally Jethro 224 for steering me to the correct site-and Ricky for posting pictures for me.
A little added info the end of the barrel measures 18mm inside 22mm outside and it is a (smooth bore).
Now a last few request! Does anyone have and estimated value for this idem?
And what would be the best way to to dispose of it short of giving it to one of you nice folks.
I have used gun broker to sell some of my modern fire arms but I do not feel that is the route that should be taken with this idem.
thanks again for all your help.charlie

 

[old gun]

If I have violated a rule of the Forum it was not my intent. I am not offering this idem for sale at this time. When and if it is offered for sale it will be in the classified forum. I do have an appreciation of rare and unusual idems and would like for them to go to some one with a special interest in them not someone that is trying to make a profit in trading. It is for this reason that I avoid gun shows. thank you again for all your help. charles

 

[WeaponsCollector]

I really like the barrel on your long gun Charles. Thanks for checking to see if it was rifled. Both the stock and lock look much later than the barrel, at least to me. The way that the barrel is attached to the fore-end of the stock with a bolt is unusual for a Spanish weapon, but the the barrel tang screw which passes though the whole stock from the trigger guard up, is typical of an early Miquelet. I have only seen wheels on the main springs of very late Miquelet locks and never on the frizzen spring. I think you've got a very nice and old barrel that was reused. Wish I could see your piece in person.

It looks like the butt is marked Clanvdio Danquin EN (English "IN") Cadiz.