Spanish muskets and pistols?

[armchair_gunner]

While on the subject of Spanish weapons during this era, does anyone here have references to (and hopefully pictures) of Spanish muskets and pistols (especially pistols) that are munitions grade? I have been trying to do research for it, and have only found bits and pieces. Sometime in the future, I may try to have a Miquelet pistol reproduced (but I want to have the research done beforehand so I can have it done right).
I know that the Rifle Shoppe have some muskets and pistols listed online, but they also don't appear to have updated for a while, for the pages say they are still researching/designing the castings. Anyone seen the Spanish weapons from Rifle Shoppe yet?

Here's hoping for something good. I've noticed that sometimes things can pop up on this forum that aren't anywhere else on the internet, and I've scraped the internet as much as I can already for Spanish Miquelets.

 

[curator]

Which time period? Which area of the Country?
I have two miquelets, one Catalan escopeta and the other a blunderbus. I have built both from Rifle Shoppe parts. They were a lot of work but no other possibility for a real miquelet lock. What kind of information are you looking for?

 

[armchair_gunner]

I see that when my post got moved into it's own thread, the context kind of got lost. I am concentrating on 1680-1740, but will dip back into the 1670s if necessary for examples.
I am especially interested in what the stocks of the pistol stocks for munition grade pistols would be. I would love to see ones made for sea service, but that may be too much to ask for (except the possibility of a 1715 Spanish treasure fleet pistol that might fit the bill). But, any other details would be good too, such as what the lock looked like, what kind of butt cap was used (if any), length of barrel, shape of barrel, caliber of barrel, and more info on the barrel bands I've seen on a few of these pistols. All that is just a start.
Also, I would love to see any of the above kind of information for munition grade muskets as well.
Luckily for me, my secondary sources on Spanish weaponry has finally come in, so I might get a few sentences of help out of that for this period.

 

[curator]

The Rifle Shoppe has several Spanish muskets and pistols in its catalog. John Buck of Musket Mart has a friend that is a collector of 16th and 17th century Spanish arms who I think is affiliated with Williamsberg. Not much information on the web but occasionally auction houses post photos of items up for sale. I have built a few replica miquelets and have a difficult time finding good examples and researching styles. This is a pic of one I completed a few years ago.

 

[armchair_gunner]

Interesting picture. Just one question though, is that a brass battery on the lock?
I called Rifle Shop today and they are going to send me a picture of their Spanish Pistol from the 1790s (catalog #816). Maybe it won't be too different from what I would want.
In the work I have done so far, I have used a lot of auction sites to get a look at Spanish miquelet pistols, but most of them are not munition-grade pistols, and for some reason I have yet to find a miquelet pistol from between 1675 and 1733. I am on the trail of one right now though that may have come from 1715.
Hmm, Williamsburg. I never even thought about asking them.
Also, the books I mentioned before have helped a little bit. Maybe with a little more help, I can pull of a reproduction.
Thank you for the help curator.

 

[miqueleter]

Armchair Gunner, there are several images on miquelet pistols in Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821 by Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. It is good for muskets as well.

 

[curator]

The frizzen/battery/hammer on my miqulet escopeta is ordinary steel. The lighting caused the yellowish tint. By "munitions grade" I assume you mean standard military issue. My understanding of Spanish military arms (which is minimal) is that pistols were not issued but officers purchased their own from civilian gunmakers.

The only reproduction miqulets I know of is the pistol and blunderbus offered by "Pirate Fashions" in St. Augustine. Here's some links: http://piratefashions.com/blackpowder_muskets.html http://piratefashions.com/blackpowder_flintlocks.html

 

[BillinOregon]

Gunner: Just want to congratulate you for your interest in Spanish firearms of this period. They are so ignored and/or overlooked by most of us in this avocation, yet they made as much or more history in North America than French and English weapons in the period.

 

[armchair_gunner]

Re: Miqueleter
That was one of the first books I obtained. For my time period, all that I could find were three officer-grade pistols that have the French influenced lock with the mainspring on the inside of the lock and not the outside like a miquelet. For muskets, it has three examples of Escopetas that are vaguely labeled 17th to 18th century. None of them are marked specifically to my time period and the bottom-most one in the one plate that has them all suggests later manufacture since the barrel is marked 1790. It’s a good source, and a rare book, and one of my most prized ones. I just wish it could help with my efforts on guns of 1680-1740.

Re: curator
Hmm, interesting comment there about the Spanish military not issuing out pistols. Now, are you saying that the Spanish military didn’t have pistols for its enlisted men on land and sea? I would doubt that because I don’t see the Spanish cavalry being the only cavalry in Europe without holster pistols. Also, I can document several hundred pistols going to the southeastern American Spanish colonies in the last years of the seventeenth century (see Firearms in Colonial America).
Now, if you are saying that the central Spanish government didn’t provide pistols but individual colonels and captains were responsible for contracting for them, that I can understand since the concept of large scale armament of troops by a central national government was still a new concept in Europe. In terms of this time period (late 17th to early 18th century), the age in which vassals and nobles were responsible for raising and equipping armies for the King’s service wasn’t too long ago. But, Spain (or whatever you want to refer to that collection of provinces in the Iberian Peninsula, I’ve heard historians debate about what to call it) was one of the first (if not the first) countries in western Europe to have a large standing army in its borders in the 16th century, funded by the great riches coming out of the Western Hemisphere.
So, while I am pretty certain that there were no standards for national military firearms until the 1720s, some examples of munition grade pistols have to exist before that. Right now, still on the track of one particular one from the 1715 Spanish Treasure Fleet that is mentioned in Firearms in Colonial America. After that, there is a book I am hunting for that might also be of some help for what I am doing, but is not listed on Amazon.com
For those of you who study these Spanish weapons, don’t let anyone tell you your job is easy.
As for those two repro’s, how did I miss that? Those might be an option, but after reading about how mainstream gun makers can sometimes produce locks that don’t spark well, I will need to get pictures of the locks and hopefully someone in this forum can tell me the reputation of this manufacturer of firearms in Florida.

Re: BillinOregon
Thank you for your recognition. I decided to pursue Spanish firearms of this era (especial naval ones) because, besides the fact that Spanish guns have limited coverage already, the naval ones have not been covered at all as far as I know. Not even William Gilkerson’s Boarders Away II covers them. So, I wanted to fill that gap, not only the information but also in my living history equipment of the era that I am putting together. Rarely do I see people doing this time period arm themselves in such a way.

Thank you all for your help and encouragement.

 

[curator]

The collector of miquelet and other Spanish firearms is James Lavin. Perhaps you can check with the folks at Williamsberg and see if someone has contact information

 

[armchair_gunner]

I will have to try and get in contact with them.

In concerns to that reproduction company in St. Augustine. Looking at their locks and looking at what originals I have, I think I would be better off taking my chances with these people and seeing if they could custom make a lock (that is, if I can't find anything else better): http://www.oakarmsbulgaria.com/muzzle_loader/miquelet/miquelet_lock_blank_firing_pistol_1.php

Oh, and I found the specific reference to pistols in Firearms in Colonial America I was talking about before. In 1698, 50 pairs of pistols were sent to Pensacola, Florida along with 300 Matchlock Muskets, 100 Flintlock Escopetas, and 5,000 muskets balls with half assigned to the Escopetas. According to the book, the pistols were most likely Ripoll patterned with 10-12 inch barrels of about .60 caliber with flared grip and flat butt.

 

[curator]

In 1698 Pensacola had fewer than 200 soldiers in their garison. Perhaps the additional firearms were meant as "gifts" to the Creeks. St. Augustine was the principal center of Spanish colonial Florida. Colonial records indicate the Crown kept them poorly equipped. During the Timucuan rebellion in 1656 Spanish soldiers were sent to the field with 10 or less cartridges to save money. St. Augustine authorities were not about to repeat the "waste" incurred during the Appalachian revolt two years earlier where Spanish soldiers expended more than 100 rounds each. Despite the victory, powder and ball were in short supply. Another thing to consider when reviewing Spanish official documents is what the Crown paid for they rarely received, particularly on the other side of the Atlantic. Records from Panton & Leslie Trading Co. indicate the Creek and Chocktaw Indians were interested in obtaining both pistols and muskets (escopeta), however this was nearly 100 years later. Spanish records are indeed in existance for this period but are hand written and difficult to access in Spain's archives.

 

[armchair_gunner]

The thing about giving them as gifts does make sense. But, the book I am quoting also mentions that during this time period, the Spanish had a very strong policy against giving the Natives any firearms of any kind because the shipments of guns that actually reached Florida were few and far in between. They were struggling to keep themselves armed. Generally, the book doesn't give the impression of them being a gift. Also, I do not recollect the last time I read that pistols were presented as gifts (or at least in that number) to natives. If someone could link me info to pistols being traded or presented as gifts to the natives, that would be appreciated. I generally understand that muskets were primarily the form of gift for natives. The French Tulle factory turned out all sorts of muskets of various qualities for trade, but not many pistols, and most of them seemed to go for service in the navy.

My point in mentioning them was to demonstrate that some kind of holster pistol for common military purposes does exist during this period, which is the hard thing to find right now.

 

[curator]

John Worth's book: Timucuan Chiefdoms in Spanish Colonial Florida gives some interesting titbits of information concerning the Spanish attitude about arming the Natives. Before the Apalachee uprising in 1647 few Natives had access to Spanish firearms. By 1656 the picture had changed somewhat and loyal Caciques and their vilages had a cashe of "muskets" and "Escopeta." By the time of the English armed Yamassee raids of 1702-1705 Spanish authorities had armed Native "militia." Little records survive that indicate the type of arms but considering the parsimony of Mother Spain, you can be sure they were cheap and probably obsolete in the home Country.

 

[armchair_gunner]

Just an update on what I have found. Every other day I seem to be obtaining a new source that gets me one step closer to the information I want. I have one book in particular that I think might be source I have been really looking for.
When I am all done gathering sources, if you all would like, I'll put up an annotated bibliography of sources in English that talk about Spanish weaponry from this 1680-1740 period I am interested in.

On another note, does anyone have a picture of the 1791 Model Spanish Pistol (815) from the Rifle Shoppe? I have yet to receive my request for an image from them. I am starting to think that that lock might be similar enough to what I need to do a reproduction.