Speaking of Tapered Hawken Barrels

[Dr5x]

I was surprised to learn that the Hawken Bros consistently produced rifles with tapered barrels. Maybe even swamped.
I consulted myPrescott Fun Smith whose life has largely devoted to Rifles and their behavior and make up.
He has had very close experience with two original Hawkens and I will attach his rely here:
SWAMPED AND TAPERED HAWKEN BARRELS?

HAVING EXAMINED TWO ORIGINAL HAWKEN RIFLES, THEY SHOWED NO TAPER
IN THEIR BARRELS. 1 1/8 FRONT TO BACK.

ONE WAS AT RETTINGS, WHEN I WORKED THERE. HEAVY THING. LATE RIFLE FROM
THE HAWKEN SHOP. MEASURED AND HELD THE THING. REMOVED AND CLEANED THE LOCK,
BREECH INSPECTED, AND BARREL CLEANED. BORE WAS IN EXCELLENT SHAPE, SURPRISINGLY.
NO RUST FROM BEING STORED LOADED. BORE WAS ABOUT .56 CAL PROBABLY FROM BEING
FRESHED OUT AT SOME POINT. OUTSIDE SHOWED TYPICAL WEAR FROM THE AGES.

OTHER ORIGINAL HAWKEN WAS FROM THE COLLECTION OF MY NOW DECEASED PAL IAN SHEIN.
IT WAS AN EARLIER RIFLE FROM THE HAWKEN SHOP. TYPICAL IRON MOUNTINGS. STRAIGHT BARREL.
IT WAS GIVEN TO ME TO SERVICE THE PATENT BREECH, WHICH WAS RUSTED SOLID IN THE PASSAGES.
I UNBREECHED THE BARREL (VERY CAREFULLY, PROTECTING EVERYTHING WITH LEAD AND BRASS SHIMS)
CHECKED THE THREADS, AND REDRILLED THE FLASH PASSAGES. BARREL WAS STILL GOOD WITH MINOR PITTING
IN THE GROOVES.

WHEN I WAS DONE WITH IT, MY FRIEND IAN SHOT IT WITH A ROUND BALL AND COMMERCIAL PATCHES (OVER MY DEAD
BODY). IT WAS MODERATELY ACCURATE. BALL AND PATCH WERE EASY PUSH DOWN THE BORE.
LATER I SET HIM UP WITH A TIGHT DRY PATCH, TIGHT BALL, AND IT SHOT MUCH BETTER. IAN FINALLY LOADING THE
BALL OVER 110 GR OF FFG, AND DOING WELL WITH IT AT 100 YARDS. TWO PATCHES WERE REQUIRED. ONE OVER POWDER,
ONE ON BALL. BARREL TWIST WAS PRETTY SLOW, I REMEMBER IT WAS ABOUT 1-70.

SWAMPED BARRELS? NO WAY. NO TAPER EITHER, ON THESE TWO EXAMPLES. CAN'T GENERALIZE TO ALL OF THE HAWKENS.

JUST MY TWO CENT OBSERVATIONS.
NOW IS THERE SOMEONE ELSE OUT THERE WITH A HAWKEN BARREL FROM THE ORIGINAL SHOP THAT does display that slight tapering.

Enquiring minds etcI no longer have possession of my Hawken copy to check it for taper but I would appreciate learning about it.
There is a presentation Hawken on Display under the St Louis Arch but it's in a glass case where I would have risk my life to measure it.

Now Gemmer, who worked for the Hawkens here in St Louis and continued in the shop after the Brothers moved away. If he followed them as closely as reported his barrels would also be tapered.

Much Ado about a very small taper.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Herb]

I was surprised to learn that the Hawken Bros consistently produced rifles with tapered barrels. Maybe even swamped.
I consulted myPrescott Fun Smith whose life has largely devoted to Rifles and their behavior and make up.
He has had very close experience with two original Hawkens and I will attach his rely here:
SWAMPED AND TAPERED HAWKEN BARRELS?

HAVING EXAMINED TWO ORIGINAL HAWKEN RIFLES, THEY SHOWED NO TAPER
IN THEIR BARRELS. 1 1/8 FRONT TO BACK.

ONE WAS AT RETTINGS, WHEN I WORKED THERE. HEAVY THING. LATE RIFLE FROM
THE HAWKEN SHOP. MEASURED AND HELD THE THING. REMOVED AND CLEANED THE LOCK,
BREECH INSPECTED, AND BARREL CLEANED. BORE WAS IN EXCELLENT SHAPE, SURPRISINGLY.
NO RUST FROM BEING STORED LOADED. BORE WAS ABOUT .56 CAL PROBABLY FROM BEING
FRESHED OUT AT SOME POINT. OUTSIDE SHOWED TYPICAL WEAR FROM THE AGES.

OTHER ORIGINAL HAWKEN WAS FROM THE COLLECTION OF MY NOW DECEASED PAL IAN SHEIN.
IT WAS AN EARLIER RIFLE FROM THE HAWKEN SHOP. TYPICAL IRON MOUNTINGS. STRAIGHT BARREL.
IT WAS GIVEN TO ME TO SERVICE THE PATENT BREECH, WHICH WAS RUSTED SOLID IN THE PASSAGES.
I UNBREECHED THE BARREL (VERY CAREFULLY, PROTECTING EVERYTHING WITH LEAD AND BRASS SHIMS)
CHECKED THE THREADS, AND REDRILLED THE FLASH PASSAGES. BARREL WAS STILL GOOD WITH MINOR PITTING
IN THE GROOVES.

WHEN I WAS DONE WITH IT, MY FRIEND IAN SHOT IT WITH A ROUND BALL AND COMMERCIAL PATCHES (OVER MY DEAD
BODY). IT WAS MODERATELY ACCURATE. BALL AND PATCH WERE EASY PUSH DOWN THE BORE.
LATER I SET HIM UP WITH A TIGHT DRY PATCH, TIGHT BALL, AND IT SHOT MUCH BETTER. IAN FINALLY LOADING THE
BALL OVER 110 GR OF FFG, AND DOING WELL WITH IT AT 100 YARDS. TWO PATCHES WERE REQUIRED. ONE OVER POWDER,
ONE ON BALL. BARREL TWIST WAS PRETTY SLOW, I REMEMBER IT WAS ABOUT 1-70.

SWAMPED BARRELS? NO WAY. NO TAPER EITHER, ON THESE TWO EXAMPLES. CAN'T GENERALIZE TO ALL OF THE HAWKENS.

JUST MY TWO CENT OBSERVATIONS.
NOW IS THERE SOMEONE ELSE OUT THERE WITH A HAWKEN BARREL FROM THE ORIGINAL SHOP THAT does display that slight tapering.

Enquiring minds etcI no longer have possession of my Hawken copy to check it for taper but I would appreciate learning about it.
There is a presentation Hawken on Display under the St Louis Arch but it's in a glass case where I would have risk my life to measure it.

Now Gemmer, who worked for the Hawkens here in St Louis and continued in the shop after the Brothers moved away. If he followed them as closely as reported his barrels would also be tapered.

Much Ado about a very small taper.

Dutch Schoultz

I was surprised to learn that the Hawken Bros consistently produced rifles with tapered barrels. Maybe even swamped.
I consulted myPrescott Fun Smith whose life has largely devoted to Rifles and their behavior and make up.
He has had very close experience with two original Hawkens and I will attach his rely here:
SWAMPED AND TAPERED HAWKEN BARRELS?

HAVING EXAMINED TWO ORIGINAL HAWKEN RIFLES, THEY SHOWED NO TAPER
IN THEIR BARRELS. 1 1/8 FRONT TO BACK.

ONE WAS AT RETTINGS, WHEN I WORKED THERE. HEAVY THING. LATE RIFLE FROM
THE HAWKEN SHOP. MEASURED AND HELD THE THING. REMOVED AND CLEANED THE LOCK,
BREECH INSPECTED, AND BARREL CLEANED. BORE WAS IN EXCELLENT SHAPE, SURPRISINGLY.
NO RUST FROM BEING STORED LOADED. BORE WAS ABOUT .56 CAL PROBABLY FROM BEING
FRESHED OUT AT SOME POINT. OUTSIDE SHOWED TYPICAL WEAR FROM THE AGES.

OTHER ORIGINAL HAWKEN WAS FROM THE COLLECTION OF MY NOW DECEASED PAL IAN SHEIN.
IT WAS AN EARLIER RIFLE FROM THE HAWKEN SHOP. TYPICAL IRON MOUNTINGS. STRAIGHT BARREL.
IT WAS GIVEN TO ME TO SERVICE THE PATENT BREECH, WHICH WAS RUSTED SOLID IN THE PASSAGES.
I UNBREECHED THE BARREL (VERY CAREFULLY, PROTECTING EVERYTHING WITH LEAD AND BRASS SHIMS)
CHECKED THE THREADS, AND REDRILLED THE FLASH PASSAGES. BARREL WAS STILL GOOD WITH MINOR PITTING
IN THE GROOVES.

WHEN I WAS DONE WITH IT, MY FRIEND IAN SHOT IT WITH A ROUND BALL AND COMMERCIAL PATCHES (OVER MY DEAD
BODY). IT WAS MODERATELY ACCURATE. BALL AND PATCH WERE EASY PUSH DOWN THE BORE.
LATER I SET HIM UP WITH A TIGHT DRY PATCH, TIGHT BALL, AND IT SHOT MUCH BETTER. IAN FINALLY LOADING THE
BALL OVER 110 GR OF FFG, AND DOING WELL WITH IT AT 100 YARDS. TWO PATCHES WERE REQUIRED. ONE OVER POWDER,
ONE ON BALL. BARREL TWIST WAS PRETTY SLOW, I REMEMBER IT WAS ABOUT 1-70.

SWAMPED BARRELS? NO WAY. NO TAPER EITHER, ON THESE TWO EXAMPLES. CAN'T GENERALIZE TO ALL OF THE HAWKENS.

JUST MY TWO CENT OBSERVATIONS.
NOW IS THERE SOMEONE ELSE OUT THERE WITH A HAWKEN BARREL FROM THE ORIGINAL SHOP THAT does display that slight tapering.

Enquiring minds etcI no longer have possession of my Hawken copy to check it for taper but I would appreciate learning about it.
There is a presentation Hawken on Display under the St Louis Arch but it's in a glass case where I would have risk my life to measure it.

Now Gemmer, who worked for the Hawkens here in St Louis and continued in the shop after the Brothers moved away. If he followed them as closely as reported his barrels would also be tapered.

Much Ado about a very small taper.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Herb]

Dutch, you are correct to say Hawken barrels with SLIGHT tapering. I have measured some originals. Here are the results: Jim Bridger Hawken, barrel 33 1/4" long ahead of snail. Measured 1.175 ahead of snail and 1.125 at the muzzle. That is the thickness of a dime, half of that taper per side. Green River Rifle Works had that rifle from November 1975 for about three years. I handled it there in 1978, we took the lock out in a class I took there. Carl Walker, their gunsmith, said the barrel was not tapered, "you can make that much difference with a file". My avatar at left is me holding the Jim Bridger Hawken in the museum in Helena. MT.

Kit Carson Hawken: barrel is 31 1/16" long ahead of snail and 1.125 ACF (across the flats) there and 1.022 at the muzzle, according to others who have described it. I have not personally measured this one. That difference is .103, or about a dime's thickness taper per side.

I measured a S. Hawken rifle in a museum in Cheyenne, WY but can't find my measurements. The barrel was 35 1/2" long ahead of the snail (AOTS). I don't remember a taper. Then I went to Lincoln, NE and measured the S. Hawken rifle in the state museum there that Robidoux made mechanical drawings of. That barrel was 32 1/8" long AOTS and measured 1.125 there and 1.090 at the muzzle. That .035 is half a nickle thickness total, or 1/4 (.0175) a nickle thickness taper per side.

Last December I went to the Cody Firearms Museum and measured some originals. Liver Eating Johnson's Hawken barrel was 31 3/4" AOTS, 1.300" ATF there and 1.218 at the muzzle, or about a dime's thickness taper per side.

The Pistol Grip Hawken there had a barrel 32 9/16" ahead of the snail, 1.145" ATF there and 1.155 ATF at the muzzle, yes, slightly larger. Only a matter of filing. I have an Oregon Rifle Barrel Company .54 barrel with a 1-48" twist (1 1/8" like the original, recently made for me) I am building into a copy of the Bridger Hawken, and that barrel varies from 1.120 to 1.140 midway to 1.130 at the muzzle. Just a matter of filing it true, if one wants to take the time).

The S. Hawken with a patchbox at Cody has a barrel 31 13/16 AOTS, 1.00" there and 1.00 at the muzzle.

The W.S. Hawken (Denver CT, with the C stamped backwards) had a barrel 32 1/4" long AOTS, 1.130 there and 1.010 at the muzzle. That is about a quarter dollar's thickness per side.

 

[Dr5x]

HERB, YOU ARE SOMETHING ELSE!
THANK YOU FOR YOUR DEFINITVE RESPONSE.IN ALL CASES THE TAPER IS SO SLIGHT AS TO BEUNNOTICEABLE.

WHAT DOES AOTS MEAN?

I WAS SURPRISED AT THE BARREL THAT WAS THICKER IN THE MIDDLE.
THANKS AGAIN.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

Dutch, you are correct to say Hawken barrels with SLIGHT tapering. I have measured some originals. Here are the results: Jim Bridger Hawken, barrel 33 1/4" long ahead of snail. Measured 1.175 ahead of snail and 1.125 at the muzzle. That is the thickness of a dime, half of that taper per side. Green River Rifle Works had that rifle from November 1975 for about three years. I handled it there in 1978, we took the lock out in a class I took there. Carl Walker, their gunsmith, said the barrel was not tapered, "you can make that much difference with a file". My avatar at left is me holding the Jim Bridger Hawken in the museum in Helena. MT.

Kit Carson Hawken: barrel is 31 1/16" long ahead of snail and 1.125 ACF (across the flats) there and 1.022 at the muzzle, according to others who have described it. I have not personally measured this one. That difference is .103, or about a dime's thickness taper per side.

I measured a S. Hawken rifle in a museum in Cheyenne, WY but can't find my measurements. The barrel was 35 1/2" long ahead of the snail (AOTS). I don't remember a taper. Then I went to Lincoln, NE and measured the S. Hawken rifle in the state museum there that Robidoux made mechanical drawings of. That barrel was 32 1/8" long AOTS and measured 1.125 there and 1.090 at the muzzle. That .035 is half a nickle thickness total, or 1/4 (.0175) a nickle thickness taper per side.

Last December I went to the Cody Firearms Museum and measured some originals. Liver Eating Johnson's Hawken barrel was 31 3/4" AOTS, 1.300" ATF there and 1.218 at the muzzle, or about a dime's thickness taper per side.

The Pistol Grip Hawken there had a barrel 32 9/16" ahead of the snail, 1.145" ATF there and 1.155 ATF at the muzzle, yes, slightly larger. Only a matter of filing. I have an Oregon Rifle Barrel Company .54 barrel with a 1-48" twist (1 1/8" like the original, recently made for me) I am building into a copy of the Bridger Hawken, and that barrel varies from 1.120 to 1.140 midway to 1.130 at the muzzle. Just a matter of filing it true, if one wants to take the time).

The S. Hawken with a patchbox at Cody has a barrel 31 13/16 AOTS, 1.00" there and 1.00 at the muzzle.

The W.S. Hawken (Denver CT, with the C stamped backwards) had a barrel 32 1/4" long AOTS, 1.130 there and 1.010 at the muzzle. That is about a quarter dollar's thickness per side.

 

[rich pierce]

Taper was common on J&S Hawken barrels, especially longer ones.

 

[Dr5x]

THANK YOU,
I HAVE BEEN INFORMED BY HERB OF 4 OR 5 EXAMPLES.

THANK YOU

DUTCH

Taper was common on J&S Hawken barrels, especially longer ones.

 

[Herb]

Dutch, AOTS was my abbreviation for "Ahead of the Snail". I tried to save a few words. These tapers are so slight it makes me wonder why they did it. Can't be any significant weight savings on most barrels. It would have been a lot of work to file those tapers. Maybe it was how they made the barrels. My measurements were only on the side flats. That was the only place I could measure the barrel ahead of the snail. Measurements across the other three sets of flats would likely be some different. My Oregon Rifle Barrel was newly made about a year ago, and they are really good barrels. The twenty thousandth of an inch variation in width is meaningless.

 

[Dr5x]

I THINK WE BOTH AGREE THAT THOSE SLIGHT VARIATIONS ARE WAY TOO TINY TO MAKE AND DIFFERENCE AT ALL.

THANKS AGAINM

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

Dutch, AOTS was my abbreviation for "Ahead of the Snail". I tried to save a few words. These tapers are so slight it makes me wonder why they did it. Can't be any significant weight savings on most barrels. It would have been a lot of work to file those tapers. Maybe it was how they made the barrels. My measurements were only on the side flats. That was the only place I could measure the barrel ahead of the snail. Measurements across the other three sets of flats would likely be some different. My Oregon Rifle Barrel was newly made about a year ago, and they are really good barrels. The twenty thousandth of an inch variation in width is meaningless.