Spiller and Burr

[wpjson]

I have just recieved a Spiller and Burr 36 cal. Old but appears to be in good condition. I like the feel of it, but I am not familiar with these. Anyone have an opinion? Ha, ha. Like no one would. Dixie Gun Works. Wear and tear but feel tight. Have not fired it yet. Will not have the chance for a few weeks. Thanks all. I will be touring Utah's National Parks for the next week and will check in occasionally to see what you folks think. :hatsoff:

 

[FishDFly]

I want one. It is on my want list at TOW.

 

[Zonie]

The pictures above show the brass framed Spiller & Burr along with the steel framed .36 cal. Whitney.

Although the Confederate contract for revolvers stated they should be like the Colt Navy, the pistols produced were anything but.

A man named Samuel C. Robinson in Richmond, Va. had been tooling up to produce a copy of the Whitney and Spiller & Burr rented his factory and appearently bought his plans for the Whitney copy.

The first, and all later revolvers produced by Spiller & Burr was a copy of the Whitney.
Although the Confederate contract called for a Colt look alike, they accepted the alternate design.

I think it interesting that although the Confederacy was never in good financial shape, the brass pistols were to be electroplated in silver.
Some say that requirement reflects how far from reality some of the Confederates were at the time.

It's just my opinion because I wasn't there but, I believe the Robinson (later to become the S&B) was always intended to be a brass framed pistol.

Note in the pictures above, the frame in front of the cylinder is considerably wider. This (IMO) was to compensate for the use of the weaker brass material. The area provides a much larger amount of brass to strengthen the area where the barrel threads in. (The original Spiller & Burr pistols had this same, wider area.)

The reproductions are quite good representations of the originals.

Perhaps one area that was copied should be mentioned.
The loading lever/barrel pin retainer are like the originals.
IMO, they leave a bit to be desired.

The loading lever/barrel pin retainer is the twist knob on the left side of the frame. Turned one way, a notch cut thru the knobs shaft aligns with the barrel pin allowing the lever/barrel pin to be removed.
Turned 180 degrees in either direction, the clearance cut rotates out of alignment with the pin and this retains it.

The entire force of the loading lever goes into this half shaft which makes the whole assembly rather weak.
Also, the ram attaches to the loading lever thru a very small screw.
This tiny screw must take the full force of the loading ram and it doesn't take much to break it.

I'm not saying, "don't use the loading lever". I am saying, loading balls much larger than .375 in diameter isn't a good thing and loading elongated bullets which require a lot of force to load them into the cylinder should be avoided.

Also, like all brass framed cap & ball pistols, keep the powder loads on the mild side.
Although the rear of the cylinder has a much larger surface area recoiling against the brass frame than the Colt's small recoil surface serving the same function, it is possible to damage the frame with heavy powder loads.

I suggest a powder load of 18-22 grains of 3Fg or Pyrodex powder.

Another tidbit of information: Like the Remington, to replace the cylinder into the frame, gently push the cylinder into place, stopping before it is entirely inserted. The cylinder hand, protruding from the rear of the frame will be blocking it.
Rotate the cylinder clockwise (looking from the rear). This will push the hand back into the frame so the cylinder can be pushed into place.

Following the insertion of the cylinder pin/loading lever be absolutely sure you turn the retaining knob a full 180° (half a full turn) to fully lock the pin in place.

Some of the internal parts are taken from the modern Remington Army reproductions so some parts are available for the S&B.

 

[wpjson]

I noticed the trigger is offset to the right. Are all cap and ball revolvers like that? I do not have mine with me so I cannot look. Never noticed before

 

[FishDFly]

You do have some nice pistols.

Along with the mentioned on the want list is a Rogers and Spencer. I passed on one at Friendship to get a really nice flintlock smoothbore. Went back to get it and it was gone.

I really like revolvers, in line matches they do not like me.

Thanks for the photos, I enjoyed them.

 

[Poor Private]

I really like my Spiller & Burr. I bought it 2nd hand. And all the steel was browned by the original owner. The brass isn't polished I let it age naturally. I am guessing it was a Kit gun, since the oly marking on it are C.S. on the brass frame. It came with the original box, Traditions.

 

[Don]

The Spiller and Burr is a neat revolver and I also picked one up not long ago. They have a limited powder capacity, mine only holds 20 grains of powder without working too hard to load the ball. As Zonie said, don't go crazy with too much powder as the brass frame can be damaged with stout loads. Enjoy your new revolver.

Don

 

[Gee Dog]

Good write up Mr. Zonie, good pics too. Wish Uberti or Pietta would make a Whitney repro. S&B’s are a cool piece too. I'd be happy to get one.

Trigger offset to the left is standard for these. Colts are too.

 

[wpjson]

Got to spend some time with my Spiller and Burr revolver today, finally. No balls so I did not shoot it today. But I did fire a couple of caps through it. 11's fell off the nipples. 10's did better but still lost one before I could fire six.

[/img] The gap between the cylinder and the frame seems to be too large and the caps just fall out. Any Ideas? Tried both 11's and 10's.

When I was cleaning the light rusting off the exterior of the barrel I saw the following: SPILLER AND BURR CAL.36 DIXIE GUN WORKS, INC. along the top, BLACK POWDER ONLY along one side and ITALY BY Palmentto on the other. Then on the bottom, hidden by the loading lever and cylinder rod was the serial number: 75. At least that is what it appears to be.

So thinking that a serial number that low might have further meaning, I put it back together again before I did any more cleaning. I can really screw things up when I get rolling, so thinking I might have something special I thought I would check with the folks on the forum before I continued. Does this have any additional value due to this number? Is it the serial number? The gun is good and tight and all the workings are smooth. It has some wear, but overall is in good shape, better than me. Thanks.

 

[hawkeye2]

I have 2 S & B's with double digit consecutive serial #s by an unknown manufacturer. Both have a 2 digit # in the same location on the barrel as yours, one is 76 and the other is 84, neither of which is the gun's serial #. The face of both cylinders bears the same # which leades me to believe they are assembly #s. The serial # on these is on the bottom of the grip right after the manufacturer's logo which is 2 interlocked diamonds. Both have the safety notches on the cylinders which shows they were made using .36 Remington cylinders as the S & B didn't have those notches. "MADE IN ITALY" on the right side of the barrel upside down. Both have date codes "XX9" on the frame. A friend, deceased, who I got them from had serial #1 from this production run.

I just noticed that on mine, which have never been apart, the loading lever retaining screw lug is on the left side of the frame with the screw head on the right.

BTW, they were not made by Pietta.

 

[wpjson]

Made in Italy is on the left side and up right on mine. No numbers on the grip. All punched information is as I stated above. Nothing more except a number on the cylinder K001672. I put the loading lever screw in backward, but have corrected it.

 

[Wes/Tex]

75 is an assembly number to fit parts.

 

[wpjson]

No serial number?

 

[hawkeye2]

"No serial number?"

Sorry to disappoint you. The serial number is found on the frame somewhere. On Colts in front of the trigger guard, Remington & S&B bottom of the grip, Rogers & Spencer left side of frame and so on. I'm suppressed to hear that yours doesn't have a serial number or any other markings either. I wonder if it might have been finished from a kit that had been filed/polished till the stamps were removed. Even a kit gun would have had proof marks and a date code, does yours have those? The machining marks of the bottom flat around the # 75 would lead me to believe that as they shouldn't be present on a factory finished gun. BTW, the grips would have been varnished from the manufacture except for a kit, yours seem to be oiled.

 

[wpjson]

That is all that is on the gun. It is all real clear except "ALY BY Pam tto". There are scratches on all parts of the gun that appear to be from use. Looks like grinder marks on ALL parts of the gun. These appear to be older than the words, as the words are clear. "DIXIE GUN WORKS, INC." is as clear as day, but there are grinder marks all along the top of the barrel, like it was ground down even before being stamped. Making sense? No marks on loading lever or hammer. Now, you have me looking at scratches and thinking I'm seeing stuff that isn't there. I'm going to give Dixie a call. Will report back.

 

[wpjson]

"75" is the assembly number. The gunsmith at Dixie told me where to find the matching number on the frame (under the grips) Gun made sometime in the 70's Pametto is no longer in business. No explaination for lack of serial number unless someone ground it off. May be a kit.

 

[Zonie]

My 1980 Dixie Gunworks catalog shows "KIT NO. 200", a Spiller & Burr revolver kit for $54.95.

It doesn't say who made the kit.

The S&B shown in the photo above was made by, "F.LLIPIETTA" (Fratelli Pietta).

B18xx is stamped on the bottom of the gripstrap, the bottom of both wood grips, the trigger guard and the barrel.
This could be an assembly number but the presence of the "B" leads me to believe it is the serial number.

 

[hawkeye2]

"No explanation for lack of serial number unless someone ground it off."

It's a Confederate Mafia gun. :grin:

"there are grinder marks all along the top of the barrel, like it was ground down even before being stamped"

Those are the hallmarks of a kit gun. It is up to the buyer to draw file and polish them out. It may be that the frame came polished since it was brass and since it looks good but that would have been unusual. It was typical for the loading lever, hammer, etc. to come polished and finished.

 

[wpjson]

Thanks all. I think you are right, it is a kit gun. number could have been filed off or something. Now just get me some balls and go shoot'en this weekend. Thanks again

 

[desi23]

I've built a couple revolver kits before, the brass frame ones I had didn't have a serial number. The CVA ones did have the CVA logo and had the frame smoothed out a bit. A Dixie kit had the frame left rough with just Dixie on the barrel. I don't remember if it had a serial (traded it off a while ago).

A steel frame Remington I built was roughly machined all over and had no markings at all. Got it at an estate sale in a plain cardboard box. No idea who made it and by the time I got done smoothing out the surfaces there wouldn't have been much left if it had been marked. Took a lot of draw filing and polishing to get it looking nice.