Springfield 1861 rifle musket loads

[RipStop]

I recently acquired an 1861 Springfield (Armisport) and I am curious as to what the maximum loads for it might be. I realize that the old service charge was about 60 grains but I'm sure it can do a bit more...

Any suggestions?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I use 70 grains of GOEX ffg in my '53 Enfield. The one thing to keep in mind when using traditional minies is that heavy loads will blow out the thin skirts and ruin accuracy.
P.R.B. is different. like any other rifle you have to work up a load that your rifle likes. Mine will shoot nice groups with up to 100 grs of ffg. These rifle are actually quite useful and versatile and probably played a much bigger role in the post Civil War west than they are given credit for.

 

[RipStop]

I have also read somewhere that you can use 1F black powder to make heavier loads in these muskets (slower burn yields greater accuracy by not "raping" the skirt (at least in theory)). Is there any truth this rumor?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It's worth a try. At worst, it just won't work. The breeches of these guns are actually quite strong. With fg the pressure curve should be slow enough that you might not blow out the skirt. Truth is, there really is no need to make a "magnum" out of these guns as they will get the job done very nicely with moderate loads. 70 grains is the most accurate in my rifle, but 80 grains is very nearly as good and probably what I would choose for a hunting load. I'd guess this charge is moving a 560 grain minie along at something over 1000 f.p.s.--good enough for a white tail at 100 yards any day. Val Forgett took a sporterized version of the Zouave rifle musket to Africa some years ago, and using some very potent loads, took some big game there. The gun held up fine. I don't know what he used for bullets though. Last I knew, you could still buy a copy of the rifle he used.

 

[Pat S]

I have been using 50gr of Pyrodex RS with Minie Balls on my 1861 Dixe/Miroku replica. When I go above that, I get blowback. The cap gets blasted off and the hammer goes half cock.
My accuracy is pretty poor so it probably isn't the optimal load.

Pat

 

[Rat]

I've always used around 90-100 grains of BP with my rifled muskets. There is no safety issue with these guns, the light military 60 grain service charge was arrived at for totally different reasons and concerns...back "in the day".

I have even fired my Zouave many times with 120 grains of fffg under a thick skirted 625 grain minnie. However, recoil was/is "excessive" as they say. My standard load with that humoungous minnie is 90 grains of ffg.

The 1861 has a very heavy octagon breech on it.

My ArmiSport 1861 is shooting good right now with the 440 grain REAL bullet, a Wonder-Wad, and 90 grains of T7. This is just a temporary load until I can get some more Swiss BP, and then I will probably go up to 100 grains and call it good. With the 90 grains of T7, recoil is still relatively mild.

My 440 REAL actually casts out to 456. With no skirt it is not load/powder charge sensitive, and also it is very short compared to the skirted minnies, which means it stabilizes better in the slow twists.

I would agree that the lower powder charges in the 70-80 grain range will work fine, especially with the heavy slugs. I just like to smack the bullet a little harder to fill the grooves, and flatten the trajectory a bit. I'm not sure why anyone would want to shoot the 60 grain service charge...that's an extremely light charge in a .58" bore. Also, deer and elk is the name of the game around here, so I want one load that will do both. Not worried about killing the deer "too dead", but I do want to be sure I'm hitting an elk, or large black bear good and hard.

Oh on blow-back, that just depends on how open the nipple is, some nipples have HUGE holes in them, and when you approach 100 grains the hammer will start blowing back. My Armi Sport's nipple has a very small[url] hole...in[/url] fact so small that I enlarged it a tiny bit. I think most of the newer replicas use nipples of a good design...but some of the older ones I've seen the nipple is just a big open tube.

Rat

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

With such a light load, my first thought is that you have a weak main spring--not an uncommon occurence with Italian repros. Definitely try a new nipple with a smaller hole if you like. My muskets both have nipples with large holes in them and I get no blow back problems but both guns have robust main springs. The Enfield is an English made gun that is about 30 years old and the '42 Sringfield is several years old. Both have hundreds of rounds up the spout, ranging from mild to potent loads, with no problems. The nipples are original to the guns--they haven't burnt out or become battered. The spares that I have are exactly like the originals, so I'm not sure you can get replacements with smaller holes.

 

[Rat]

Right, I have one nipple with a very large hole, and it still goes up to 100 grains before the hammer starts blowing back...probably more like 110 before that happens.

60-70-80 grains should not blow the hammer back.

Rat

 

Merely shows how low the pressure in big bores really is, doesn't it?- I liked up to 140gr. C&H 2F with patched round balls in my .58's, Hawken, Numrich Underhammer and Military Rifled Muskets. Lyman's Handbook gives the pressure for the C&H 140gr.I used as 5,350 LUP, where they also give the mfgr's max pressure as being 8,818 PSI. That 5,350LUP gave 1,404fps in the book while it gave me 1,400fps as well. I can assume it is correct for THAT powder. It is VERY low in pressure. What that is in LUP, CUP or CIP, I don't know. It is supposed to be close. Max pressures given for other guns from the Itiallian proof house are 13,512 PSI for.45's rifles, & 12,089 PSI for .44 rifles.
: Lyman's data shows pressures up to 15,200 CUP in .36 & 15,500CUP in .45 rifles. CUP takes over from LUP at around 10,000LUP so they seem to be similar rates.
: The .58's didn't obtain 15,000 CUP with any load listed as they stopped at 180gr. with barely over 60% of the smaller bore's pressure.
: In the .75 Bess, they went up to 150gr. for a whole 1,213fps. We know from extroplations of other data, that at 1,200fps, the Bess's pressure will be lower than any other smaller calibre obtaining the same velocity with patched round ball. This includes the .58's 4,400LUP to 5,000LUP depending on powder to the .54's 6,000LUP.

 

[Pat S]

I thought about trying a smaller holed nipple but haven't been able to find one. Anyone know a source?
Also assuming a mainspring is good, does anyone know what weight the pull should be on it. I'd guess it could be measured the same way as a trigger pull...

Pat