Springfield Smoothbore?

[pappydean]

Picked up an interesting fowler? at the Kingsport, Tenn. gun show yesterday. I don't know much when it comes to front stuffer history, so heres what she looks like. The stock is walnut. The barrel starts oct. and changes to round about 6" from the tang above the stock. In the stock it stays oct. the length of the stock which is 11 1/2" long from the back of the breech plug. There are 2 stamped metal thimbles to retain the ramrod which is steel. There is no rear sight, just a bead up front. The bore apears to be .69 cal., but is rough. I'm not sure if it will be shootable. The barrel is held in place with 1 wedge pin and the tang screw. Now for the interesting part. Removal from the stock found what appeared to be a place for a rear sight on the bottom flat with several lines and numbered markings such as 10,9,8,7,6,and 5. In the bottom of the dovetail is 17.0. The series of above numbers are in an indenture such that a military type elevation would fit into.The oct. to round work is tapered and appears to have been done by hand. The nipple threads seem to be possibly the same as a Thompson Center rifle but a little loose until getting tight. The butt plate, trigger guard, lock, side plate, and all screws appear to be military. The lock has S58 stamped in the middle. So to me this gun seems to have lived a double life. First a Springfield .58 cal. rifle then later converted to a fowler and drilled out to .69 cal. smoothbore. Anyone seen any like this? Was this a common conversion? All comments appreciated.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Lots of Civil War rifle-muskets were bored smooth-usually to 20 gauge-after the war and sold as surplus. Many were cut down or sporterized into shotguns. And some were sold as is to soldiers. But the Springfield and Enfield guns both had round barrels. They weren't octagon in the stock and round above it. And both were clearly marked.

This sounds like one of the post war guns made up after the Yankees confiscated southern firearms and folks were forced to get by with whatever they could put together.
Sounds like someone reused an old octagon barrel by mounting it upside down in a new stock and using whatever parts were at hand. It may not have a lot of monetary value, but as a piece of Americana it is irreplaceable.

 

[Turner1776]

The S58 on lockplate is likely 858 meaning 1858. Austrian and other foreign muskets are marked this way, no need for a one stamping as noone made muskets in 858 A.D.

 

[Okwaho]

I think Swampranger is probably right.It sounds like an Austrian Lorenz either model 1854 or 1862. The only difference between the two is that the 1862 has an Enfield type lockplate and the 1854 has the tit in front where a frizzen would go. It had a 37 1/2 " barrel in .54 cal. and had two barrel bands plus a split band at the muzzle.Over 300,000 of them were bought by both sides during the Civil War and many were bored out to .58 cal.The "858" does mean 1858 meaning that the gun is likely a model 1854.The Lorenz had a quadrangular bayonet and the steel rammer had a brass tip. It did have an oct to round barrel and yours has probably been rotated although I can't say whether it is a Lorenz barrel. It sounds like a post war restock made into a shotgun utilizing some old parts.I don't remember as to the mounts but think they were brass. There was a shortened version of the models 1854 and 1862 with a 26 1/2" oct to round barrel and one band plus the split band and was still 54 cal.Sorry I can't answer anymore without seeing the gun.
Tom Patton

 

[Tumblernotch]

I think you're probably right too. I had a 54 Lorenz which believe it or not had been converted to flint. It had an octagon to round barrel with Belgian proof marks. They must of made many of these using left over Augustin tube lock plates from the preceding model. It was forged and drilled for a detonator cap and "frizzen" spring used to keep it tight on the primer under the cap. Many of them were used by the yankees in this manner but the primers were hard to keep in stock, so many were converted to percussion. I don't know if the Confederates imported any with the Augustin lock. They sure imported many with standard percussion locks. Somebody before I got it thought he was smart and reconverted it to "flint". Every part had a serial number and match marks. The ramrod with the brass band in the head was original and the serial number matched all of the others. I kinda wish I'd kept it but I traded for a good Springfield which later led to a Whitworth.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I kinda wish I'd kept it but I traded for a good Springfield which later led to a Whitworth.

:shocking: OK, now you got me drooling! You said WHITWORTH! :master: Is it an original or a reproduction? (If so, is it a Parker Hale?) How do you like it? Do you find it's as fantasticaly accurate as they say? :hmm: Do you still have it?

Please tell me more... I need to hear some good honest first-hand evaluations and testimonies.

as I look for a hankychief... :cry:
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Tumblernotch]

Now, calm down son and take a deep breath. It is a reproduction. It's a Parker-Hale, ser. no. 61., an early one. I traded for it back in '84 and carried it for ten years as a sharpshooter in Archer's Brigade. It has the hexagon 1 in 20 twist bore. I've never got to do very much serious live shooting with it, but what little I have has been interesting. The gun shoots very high and I raised the globe sight post as high as possible and it wasn't enough. I filed the notch deep as I could go in the backsight. It still shoots high but is shootable. I want to make new sights for it. It kicks like a mule. I shoot a 560 gr. slug in front of 70 grs. of 3F. I've never had the opportunity to shoot it past 100 yds. yet. Once I get it to suit me, I might run over into Kentucky and try 'er out at that range across the river. I've got to git, the wife's hollerin'. I'll get back.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Years ago, somebody took one of these to Africa and proceeded to rack up an impressive number of one shot kills
on big game there. I seem to recall that the load included a
powder charge of 110 grains of ffg. Must have been a sight when that load was lit off. Given the accuracy that my old Parker Hale '53 Enfield is capable of, I would imagine the Whitworth is well worth the extra cost.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Mine is stamped on the side of the barrel 90 grains. It's more than I need around here. 70 will push that big slug fast enough for deer hunting. It will punish you if you shoot it on the bench. I use a grooved cylindrical bullet in it, can't afford the hex mould. Recovered rounds at the range show that a solid base (no cavity) will upset into the rifling with 85 grs. of FFFg. When I got this piece, it had a beryllium nipple in it which hadn't been taken out and cleaned, and I believe the threads were wrong. These early pieces at least had Imperial threads which are just a leetle different than ours. The nipple had partially melted after many hot loads and gases had eroded the bolster. I replaced the nipple and used it for quite a while with no problems. One day a couple of years ago, I was test firing some slugs that I had modified in the lathe and I got a tight one. I turned the breech away from my face a little and pulled the trigger. The nipple went into the trees, the hammer came back far enough to ding the stock and the stirrup end of a brand new tumbler I had just machined broke off. I just took it to the house and hung 'er up. (After I cleaned it of course.)The threads were just too weak in the bolster. Sometime this summer I'd like to drill it out, make a liner and rebuild the bolster, make a new tumbler and some new sights and go out and really see what it can do. Many don't believe it, but there are documented kills at over a mile with scoped Whitworths. I can't see well enough to do that, but I would like to try something in the 300 - 500 yd. range sometime. From what I've read it was a weapon far ahead of it's time. It was a lot of fun portraying a sharpshooter with it and it always drew some comments. One thing about it, it has a peculiar ring to it when it goes off, even with blanks. I used 140 gr. blanks in it when reenacting and it made the same ringing sound as a bronze 12 pounder, and durn near as loud.
I forgot to add that I killed a deer with it one year at...get this... 15 yards. A quartering shot which took out the first rib, blew the heart to atoms, scrambled the guts into soup and left an exit hole big enough to shove your fist through. I first saw the buck about 400 yards away but with open sights and not having practiced at that range Ididn't try it. He obliged me by coming back towards me and allowing me to ambush him. Talk about overkill.

 

[pappydean]

KanawhaRanger,
I believe you,Okwaho, and SwampRanger are right. Closer inspection of the lock reveals 858 instead of S58. The ramrod does have a brass insert in the seating jag. The barrel is 33 1/2" long, but has definitely been cut as the muzzle is uneven. Also, I believe the bore is .66 instead of .69. Just that the muzzle is a little worn. Thanks for your replys.
pappydean

 

[Tumblernotch]

No problem. It should be .54 but probably has been shot out pretty bad. If the barrle appears real thin that's probably what happened. These were pretty good weapons in their day. One other thing, the front sight/bayonet lug instead of square in shape is a kind of parallelogram. The groove in the bayonet socket which slides over the lug is in kind of a spiral. Everybody else's slide straight back and turn 90 degrees. That's another characteristic of an Austrian barrel. Mine also had several Belgian proofs on it indicating subcontracting.

 

[jim gray]

Isn't that the gun which was supposedly referred to as the Austrian Enfield?

 

[pappydean]

KanawhaRanger,
There are some markings and lettering still visible, but I do not know enough to tell anything about them. There is no sign of a banonet lug, probably because the barrel has been shortened.
pappydean

 

[Rat]

Can't imagine converting an original gun, from anything to anything....However...

I've often wondered if a REPLICA 1861 or 1863 Springfield wouldn't make kind of neat rifle, if someone did a NICE conversion to flint on it. I think it would look good, and it would be pretty unique, a .58" flintlock minnie rifle/rifle-musket!!???

Just one of those strange thoughts that cross my mind sometimes.

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Must be the fumes from all them wierd solvents you use for cleaning. See, if ya just used water like normal people you wouldn't be having these strange thoughts. :crackup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

It could be. The short Austrians that I've seen resemble the short Enfield sergeant's rifle, at least from a distance. The hammers on some are very similiar. But when you get close you can easily see the difference. I'm not real familiar with Austrians, just the one I had and it's been 20 years since I had it. I have read that factories in Belgium and Austria were making copies of the Enfield and selling them to Northern agents.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I have an original barrel from a Colt 1861 Special musket that I have given thought to making into about a 22ga. shotgun. It's in too poor a shape to restore as a musket, the rifling is shot out, etc. I was thinking about using an original 63 Model lock, but you've got me to thinkin' about usin' a rock lock! I'd have to re-breech it and since I'm lazy I'll probably keep it percussion. Actually, if someone would want an unusual flint rifle-musket, you could build one from the new 1842 Springfield Rifled Musket. A lot of people don't know about the Model 1835 Springfield. It was the last flintlock smoothbore musket, and it was made at Springfield. There were 30,421 made between 1839 and 1844. 26,841 were converted to percussion at the Armory between 1849 and 1851. But before this, in 1842, some of them were rifled as an experiment and a large leaf type sight was mounted behind the lower band. I must say that would be an interesting piece, don't you? And don't feel too bad about what Rat says. I have those moments myself! I've even thought of turning my Charleville into a percussion conversion of a 2nd Model Virginia Manufactory Musket. If I could find a beat up one, I probably would.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Pappy there are several proof marks to look for on those barrels. Mine happened to have four that were decipherable. One is an oval with the letter E at the top and L G at the bottom and a mark that looks like a monument with a stepped base. Both of these are Liege, Belgium proofs. Also the flaming bomb which is similiar to the "Flaming Onion" of our own ordnance dept. On the bottom was an intertwined EL in script which was also a Liege mark. On every major part of this rifle there were sets of three notches, including the barrel. There were assembly marks, serial numbers (all of which matched on this gun)everywhere, including screw heads. It appears that this piece was Austrian made except for the barrel. The factories at Liege made whole guns and parts for most of the countries in Europe. If the barrel hadn't been shortened on yours, the bayonet lug would have appeared to be diamond shaped instead of square. Like I said earlier, the slot on the bayonet socket was curved so it would appear to screw onto the barrel when you attached it. Kinda strange. I saw one of these bayonets in a Hardee's restaurant showcase one time and tried to buy it but they wouldn't sell it. :cry:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Pappy, I was just going through a book that talks about Austrian imports and there were some .70 cal., short muskets with 33 inch barrels culled out from a group of guns which were in a New York order. I have a .71 cal. Austrian Minie Ball which I dug at a local battlefield which proves that there were large caliber Austrian guns here. If your barrel measures smaller, it probably was a .54 cal. that wore out. Mine was probably worn out to about .63 or more at the muzzle but only for a few inches.

 

[Rat]

Reb why I oughta....!!!

Least I don't sit around and listen to my guns rust at night!!

Or is that the Fords and Chevys I hear rusting at night?

Ahhhhh I don't know...need to sniff some more #9+ and go brush my toof.

Rat