standardized M1777 and hunting history

[mattybock]

seems that the late french empire was flung far and wide, and Napoleon expanded on that. Anyway, french design seems to be darn right ubiquitous. They were used by virtually every European power (excluding the British) in some form for many reasons.
Is it a far assumtion that the M1766, M1777, 1809 Potzdam and the Springfield 1796/1812/16/22/35/40 were all basically the same gun?
Seems they were all 42 inch barreled, 58 inches total, 9 to 10 pounds, had the same shape of barrel bands, etc. The only differences appear to be cosmetic, and that the potzdam was .71 caliber.

And, is there any writing or sources (modern or historic) for hunting with one of these things? Heck they made about 8.5 million of them in all their national guises. Seems someone must have snuck one away from Nappy and went hunting with it.

The only kind of reference to one in use is the lyrics of a Tom Waits song "Just the Right Bullets' and the prop used in the play 'The Black Rider' which was vaguely musket-like.

 

[Zonie]

...
Is it a far assumtion that the M1766, M1777, 1809 Potzdam and the Springfield 1796/1812/16/22/35/40 were all basically the same gun?
Seems they were all 42 inch barreled, 58 inches total, 9 to 10 pounds, had the same shape of barrel bands, etc. The only differences appear to be cosmetic, and that the potzdam was .71 caliber.

I suppose some folks would think so.

These same folks would also say a Ford and a Chevrolet, Toyota, Kia and BMW are basically all the same car.

They all come with 4 wheels, often of the same size. They all have glass windows, turn signals, at least two doors, steering wheels and brake pedals. Seats, headlights and a horn.

Anymore they all even look just about the same if you ignore the name emblem.

 

[tenngun]

When we get in to this we get caught up on details a lot. We draw lines at real and sometimes make belive differences. Yes charley was the model for others, and unless you a 'in to muskets' you won't see the differences until its ponted out to you. Where does a 'plain'penn gun become a 'plains full stock ',or a southren rifle become a tennesse? In late classic period they become easy to tell apart,early on its harder. At one time there was a magic place where a penn mother gave birth to a virgina child,that was grandma to a sothren mountin child and great granny to a tennesse .

 

[wattlebuster]

They got hungry back then same as we do today and I bet it did'nt matter to them if it was a M1766 or M1777 or a springfield as long as it went bang and helped stop the belly growl. They used what they had in there hands at the time they needed it

 

[rafterob]

I'm sure plenty of hunting occured. Most armies of the field had to forage on their own. Basic staples were brought along with the following supply train. Not sure how much huntable game was left in Europe in the 18th century though. A good read about this is a book based on a napoleonic soldier's diary and the failed campaign on Russia. Aptly titled Diary of a Napoleonic Foot Soldier An easy and very informative read.

 

[Stumpkiller]

For the Charlevilles you'd have to check what was available to hunt in French colonies of the 1800's - when these muskets might have started to filter to the civilian population.

As for hunting - when you have 500 guys in a clump the game probably got scarce. Wandering off to go hunting on your own was likely looked on as "dissertion" unless you were sent off for that duty - and the military hired scouts to provide that service. In occupied territory you just raided the local farms and ate domestic animals: war prizes if you were on the wrong side and commandeered otherwise (or paid for with worthless script). So it wasn't until the military dumped the old muskets that they would see hunting use.

But yes, no doubt such arms were used if that was what was available. I don't have it but there is (I believe) a contemporary account of geese flying over Washington's camp while a represenattive from Congress was visiting. They couldn't march, they couldn't drill, but when food was available they could shoot!

In the 1930's Bannerman made a career out of going to Eurpoean armories and buying stored muskets - that had been held onto for 150 or more years by then. As a rule the Europeans didn't disperse arms to their subjects within the country.

 

[wattlebuster]

I agree. Thats why they were called subjects. Had they firearms they would be called citizens

 

[Ike Godsey]

you should not forget, here in europe, there have always existed a gun-law that restricted the own and the use of guns.

airguns were very common, cause once the gunlaw said that you cannot have a gun shooting powder. so the gunmakers made and sold many very easy constructed airguns in .40 caliber (round about).

later on the gunlaw changed and said, nobody is allowed to own a gun without a (flint)lock. so the gunmakers put an easy made, mostly not working flintlock on the airguns.

also, the woods and everything that was in there belonged to someone. an earl or "freiherr" or any other landlord.

hunting without permission was VERY risky!
you guys know that there are so called "jaeger regiments" - those roots are going back to the jaegers that worked for (again) an earl or landlord, and they watched over the game raised in their woods.

poor people in europe hunted - for sure - without permission and with almost any gun they can get. no matter if it is military or civilian style.
one important thing was the availability of amunition. so one would might have looked for a military musket 'cause the poilce normaly used the same guns, so "aquiring" cartriges from a drunken policemen in a bar was not much of a problem.

many of those muskets have been cut back to barrels shorter than 25 inches. some have been altered with a rearstock that could be hooked on to the gun to make break down and hiding the gun easier - remember - hunting was forbitten and VERY risky.

today you still can find those cutdown muskets in barns and cabins, many of them privatley converted to percussion.
some french colletors and reenactors do reconvert the locks to flint and use those locks on their muskets while reenacting.

in addition: not haveing the wood as a resource for fresh meet, living was very hard over here in the 16thm 17th 18th and also 19th century. not haveing the woods as natural resource, thats one of the reasons so many folks here went to the americas.

ike

 

[tecum-tha]

In the European armies there was probably about zero hunting going on. Hunting was always a privilege of nobility in Europe. My assumption is, that only little hunting was done overall with any 1777 or later models.
Probably some in the colonies, but a military musket is quite expensive to operate for hunting use. Rather trade it in for something more useful. Getting away from your unit without proper orders was probably treated as attempted desertion and you either ran the gauntlet or got your ass shot if caught....

 

[crockett]

It's been a while since I was interested in muskets but there were differences such as the stock shape, wrist area, etc.
As has been said- in Europe hunting was for nobles. Probably fine fowling pieces for birds and in France, a hunting sword for stag. In fact if the idea of English fox hunting sounds good check out French stag hunting- still done and that would be some sport.
As for muskets being used for hunting in North America- it is that old "never say never". Manual Lisa of mountain man fame is said to have used a modified Brown Bess but generally I'd say the use of a French style (or US) musket for hunting was likely uncommon.
And, no disrepect to the "mother country" regarding the Brown Bess but the French style was widely copied because of a lot of good features such as a steel ramrod, barrel bands instead of pins, a slightly smaller powder load, etc.

 

[palladius]

I'm sure plenty of hunting occured. Most armies of the field had to forage on their own. Basic staples were brought along with the following supply train. Not sure how much huntable game was left in Europe in the 18th century though. A good read about this is a book based on a napoleonic soldier's diary and the failed campaign on Russia. Aptly titled Diary of a Napoleonic Foot Soldier An easy and very informative read.

Exactly. When armies were on the march soldiers were basically on their own for finding food. Foraging parties would often go quite far from their parent unit raiding farms and stealing domestic animals. If they could find game they would shoot it but as several people have noted, large bodies of soldiers on the march would keep game scarce.

 

[fusil de chase]

I know of two french military muskets brought to eastern Canada by two diffrent disbanded members of the 97th or was it 95th Regiment of foot that were used for hunting well into the 20th century. The soldiers had served at Waterloo, the Caribean and garrisoned in Upper Canada before recieveing grants in S.E N.B. One musket was in my family till the 1960s hence dispeared but I know some 12 year old boys killed a bear with the one ball they had left for it, the other is in a friend's rafters, "dewatted" mailiciously by a mountie with a Hatchet! "can't register that.." WHack off goes cock.
I am sure zillions of critters got whacked with french military muskets over the past centuries and I am equally certain that if you looked hard enough you'd likely find an example or two still afield in Africa or some other part of the world were smooth guns and poverty are legally required.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

......

....french design seems to be darn right ubiquitous. They were used by virtually every European power (excluding the British) in some form for many reasons.
Is it a far assumtion that the M1766, M1777, 1809 Potzdam and the Springfield 1796/1812/16/22/35/40 were all basically the same gun?
Seems they were all 42 inch barreled, 58 inches total, 9 to 10 pounds, had the same shape of barrel bands, etc. The only differences appear to be cosmetic, and that the potzdam was .71 caliber.

There are HUGE differences in all of the muskets you mention. Stock design, barrel length, etc. Similarities, yes, but that is as far as it goes. Many nations used French design features (3 bands) but changed too many of those features to say they were anything beyond "similar", especially the Prussians. The Americans did almost directly copy most of their muskets beginning with the "standard" (non-interchangeable) M1795 through the M1816. Beginning with the M1840 flint and the M1842 percussion muskets, influence was less obvious but still there. After that? Gone almost completely.

The only kind of reference to one in use is the lyrics of a Tom Waits song "Just the Right Bullets' and the prop used in the play 'The Black Rider' which was vaguely musket-like.

Please, you've gotta come up with something more reliable than Tom Waits.... :shake:

 

[tenngun]

Remember charlys were issued to American troops, at least the earlier modles. Some of those filtered in to civilian use.

 

[okawbow]

A little earlier model, but works fine for game.


photo (1) by okawbow, on Flickr

 

[crockett]

Actually I think you have a point. After the AWI George Washington (if I recall reading correctly) thought that the muskets used ought to be retained as an heirloom to those who fought in the war- the musket to be handed down through the generations- so...there must have been quite a few in civilian hands.
The interesting part of this story was that afterwards someone told Washington that was very benevolent and Washington said that his true motive was to get rid of the muskets so that new and better arms would have to be acquired by the army.

 

[spudnut]

The only kind of reference to one in use is the lyrics of a Tom Waits song "Just the Right Bullets' and the prop used in the play 'The Black Rider' which was vaguely musket-like.[/quote]

Love that album,wild stuff