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Star cut balls

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rafterob

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Has anyone ever experimented with a round ball by cutting down into it in a star pattern with the desired effect of it spreading out as it flys towards its target. I would think this could be effective on birds. I think the trick would be to leave enough of the ball attached so the tips would not separate as it is spinning out. Does this make sense? I would think it is feasable if done just right.
 
I'm picturing a round ball with cuts in it that are deep enough to cause the ball to fly apart after it leaves the muzzle, the idea being that it will make something like a 4 or 6 fragment pattern?

Assuming one could know how deep to cut the ball to make this happen, I think several things would occur.

First, the cuts would have to be deep enough that the ball would collapse when it was loaded into the bore. This would prevent the patch from sealing the load as it should for maximum performance.

Second, the rotation caused by the rifling would not only cause the ball to separate but each individual piece would fly outward from the line of flight. None of the pieces would continue towards the actual point of aim. How far and in what direction is anyone's guess so the chances of hitting a given target (or bird) would be pretty slim.

This same sort thing happens whenever someone tries shooting a shot load out of a rifled gun.
The pattern formed is usually a donut with the center area receiving very little shot.
 
Could a "sweet" spot be found where the fragment pieces would still de held together in the center so it would basically fly like a propeller? Granted, it would have to be just perfect so each fragment weighed exactly the same to impart a perfect balanced spin. A wad could help to overcome gas blow by.
 
This kind of thing has been done with modern bullets, and "Flechettes", and might be possible with a ball made of copper. I don't believe that you could do this successfully with pure lead, and expect the ball to stay together at it spins going through the air. You could not guarantee that the blades of that " propeller would peel back or "Open" uniformly at the same time. The result would be as unstable as an airplane propeller that loses one of its blades. ( It happened all the time in combat in WWII). The ball would literally rip itself apart in flight, with no " sweet spot" down range you could be assured of hitting.

Try shooting a Round Ball out of your rifle, with several pieces of smaller shot pellets in front of it. The larger ball would push right through the smaller pellets, no matter what size you use, sending them into all directions. If you want to shoot a duplex load that stays together somewhat, you put the buckshot down first, and then the large ball next, so that the large ball precedes the smaller buckshot down range, and doesn't interrupt their travel by bumping them out of the way.

While this trial is Not exactly the same as a cut RB, it demonstrates the kind of forces you would have to deal with if you used a cut ball as you describe. Smoothbores, without rifling of any kind, show some slight promise of delivering this kind of ball or ball and buck to a target, simply because they don't spin the projectile.

The initial rotation speed on rifle balls, and bullets is awesome. At 1500 fps, and in a 1:48 ROT barrel, the RB is spinning at the rate of 1,875 revolutions per minute. Now, air resistance begins to slow the speed of rotation as soon as the ball leaves the barrel, so the rotational speed lessens to some degree during flight. If you compare These speeds of rotation to that of a high speed drill, you begin to understand the in-flight problems of controlling the expansion, and accuracy of the kind of projectile you describe.

A PRB is effective in killing game because of its diameter and weight. The larger the caliber, the heavier the ball, and the greater the penetration and damage to internal organs. A pure lead ball happens to expand at even very low velocities on hitting flesh- much more so than any other projectile we have come up with to date.

Even in modern copper jacketed, Hollow Point bullets, the core that does the expansion is still lead. Barnes did a lot of work in the past 50 years trying to create an all copper bullet that delivers the same kind of wound characteristics, and he succeeded better than anyone else. But, those bullets simply don't work in BP guns, and no one has come up with any different design for a PRB that works better, than pure lead.


Hornady now makes a bullet with copper jacket and hollow nose, with a soft plastic nose in it above an open cavity. The shape of the bullet aids in accurate flight, but on impact, the plastic nose is driven back into the cavity and helps the bullet expand in flesh. Something like that might work, with modifications such as you suggest, in a MODERN BULLET, shot from modern guns. However, I just don't see how it could work with a PRB made of lead. :thumbsup:

Paul
 
Ghettogun said:
Has anyone ever experimented with a round ball by cutting down into it in a star pattern with the desired effect of it spreading out as it flys towards its target. I would think this could be effective on birds. I think the trick would be to leave enough of the ball attached so the tips would not separate as it is spinning out. Does this make sense? I would think it is feasable if done just right.


good idea but you better get a smooth bore :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup: :surrender:
 
I have a tc maxi shok tool kit which you put a tip on your ram rod , it comes wiff a arrow tip , cross tip, star tip , dot tip , which works on rb and maxi balls ,it turns them to hollow points. I have tried them and they work great , I took a maxi ball and used the star tip , when hunting deer , shot one doe wiff it and it dropped her in her tracks , when butchering it , the maxi ball was in 4 chucks , I hit the doe in the neck and all the bones was chucks , I have tried it on rb , shooting at 1 gallon milk jugs filled wiff water and they just exploded like you was using hollow points . I havnt noticed any affect on acuracy . Has any body else in the forum has the tc maxi shok kit , or heard about it and used them ?
 
Why is it that people want to modernize and bastardize the muzzleloader? :shake:

Sorry, I just don't understand why someone logs onto a traditional muzzleloading forum and then wants to discuss this manure.

SHOOT THE ROUND BALL!

(okay, I feel much better now) :haha:
 
Yeah, round ball is a round ball.

If you want expansion, get some sort of hollow point conical.
 
Ghettogun said:
Has anyone ever experimented with a round ball by cutting down into it in a star pattern with the desired effect of it spreading out as it flys towards its target. I would think this could be effective on birds. I think the trick would be to leave enough of the ball attached so the tips would not separate as it is spinning out. Does this make sense? I would think it is feasable if done just right.

I think if you want to shoot birds, you should use a smooth bore and bird shot. Most states limit shot size, rendering your experiment useless.
 
This thread brings up some interesting points. In the old days muzzel loading cannon often used bar or chain shot. Could you fire such out of a smoothbore for bird hunting?

Foster From Flint
 
I would tend to think if it could be done it would have already been done. Don't be too disparaging on those who think outside the round ball. There has been experimentation with projectiles as long as there have been firearms. The roundball rules out of sheer simplicity of manufacture,use and performance.
 
I thought your question was interesting. I like the fact that you were trying to " think outside the box". It shows that you are willing to question orthodoxy, and its from that questioning, that new ideas and inventions rise. The Analysis of your proposed thesis leads to the conclusion that in this case, Orthodoxy has its own merit, and the Round ball is the Best projectile for the kind of shooting asked of it. Proving any "Old Way" of doing things is still the best way is how young people, of all ages, learn. Thanks for the question. And thanks to all of the members who offered comments. :hatsoff:
 
Would there be a similar effect from several lead washers of the correct diameter stacked in a column to fire?
They'd separate at the muzzle & scatter due to shape. :idunno:

Or just use shot between a pair of wads.:hmm:
 
Hmm. Where you would find thin, lead washers?

There have been " Spreader" Loads made up for modern shotguns, putting lead shot in layers between various kinds of wads, or plastic layers, intended to give the maximum spread. Mostly they were marketed to Skeet shooters. Remember that the longest distance from a shooting post to a flying clay target in Skeet is only 22 yards. A cylinder bore barrel with 3 dram equivalent loads in 12 gauge will spread as fast without all the extra work.

I think the fact that game codes normally designate the maximum and minimum size shot that may be used in shotguns to hunt game birds pretty much eliminates this kind of experimentation. Here in Illinois, the Common Pigeon, the English Sparrow, and the starling are considered "Pests", with no restrictions as to bag limits, time of day to hunt them, or what to use to kill them. We do have some conflicting- or at least confusing- general regulations that MAY prohibit the use of large balls, or projectiles to shoot these Pests, and you would have a court fight on your hands if a Conservation Police Officer with a heavy badge(it happens) decided to write you up.

I know people who shoot pigeons and starlings with everything from BB guns, to .22s, and a few who use their small bore MLers to do the honors. Shotgun shooters rarely want to waste money shooting these birds, even when they are pests, and damaging grain held in silos, so they use small bore shotguns, and 1/2 oz. loads of shot( #8&#9). We are talking the .410, and maybe a .28 ga.

If you want to combine pest control with practice to shoot some of the harder sporting clays courses,( Or the Quail Walk Course at Friendship) try shooting pigeons off the top of silos. One shooter fires, and when the others pigeons fly up and away, the other shooters try to take them in the air, with those over the head, high passing targets. The pigeon, like its cousin, the Morning Dove, can turn on a dime and give you back 9 cents in change, so its good sport. Shots are typically more than 100 feet over your head, so you find out how to point your gun to put shot on a target that high up. :hmm:
 
Hmm. Where you would find thin, lead washers?
I never really thought about it till now. :idunno:

Here's a few ideas right off the top of me 'ead, roofing lead or rolled sheets of lead cut 'em out with a wad cutter punch?, make a custom mould, or modify an existing one. Take a long rod of the right diameter & cut of disks with a pipe cutter or a lathe. :rotf:
 
I haven't tried to "Kit" but I have used hollow pointed round balls for years in stake shoots and in my one deer rifle that just doesn't like mini's. I used a short starter with a "pilot" to keep the hollow point (1/8 x1/8 ) centered. And can detect no difference in accuracy, but a lot of difference in impact!
 
I recall reading an piece in a very old issue of Muzzle Blasts on how to make a hydraulic expanding roundball. The author took a .440 ball and drilled a hole into the ball through the sprue and filled it with water with an eyedropper. Then he plugged the hole by press fitting a lead gas check. The photos of recovered balls from a coyote were pretty impressive but showed me, at least, that while expansion was dramatic, penetration was poor.

Duane
 
I'd imagine the water will be bad for accuracy. Same way you can try to spin an egg. If it spins, it's hardboiled. If not, it's raw.
 
Page 13 of COLLECTORS ILLUSTRATED ENC. OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION shows drawings of mutilation bullets used by both sides in the revolution. :idunno:
 
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