Static Electricity Sets Off BP ?

[Spikebuck]

One summer I worked at the Hershey Choc plant in PA, in the sugar mill, where they made confectionary sugar. The dust came down on everything and hung in the air like a fog. There were major signs everywhere against smoking. he equipment was made of non-sparking material and even the light switches were covered and operated by push button through a covered case.

my buddy, who was convinced that sugar was not explosive, threw a handful up in the air and as it came down around him he flicked his lighter on. The massive flare up lasted about a half second. His hair, eyebrows and lashes were all singed. And he had minor burns to the face.

Kind of ff but as long as you mentioned it:

http://www.csb.gov/imperial-sugar-company-dust-explosion-and-fire/

Accident Description
On February 7, 2008, a huge explosion and fire occurred at the Imperial Sugar refinery northwest of Savannah, Georgia, causing 14 deaths and injuring 38 others, including 14 with serious and life-threatening burns. The explosion was fueled by massive accumulations of combustible sugar dust throughout the packaging building

Also, regarding combustibility of dust:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opinion/the-danger-of-combustible-dust.html?_r=0

 

[Alden]

Seen the experiments where they TRY to ignite black powder with static electricity. But why take chances? A few PEOPLE spontaneously combust every year!

Avoid static electricity -- "it's volts that jolts but mils that kills" may not apply to lighting of black powder. Inevitably every black powder factory blows up.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

They may have "applied" low amounts of static electricity to some graphite coated black powder granules. They did not TRY to ignite black powder. They could have succeeded had they tried.

 

[user 20224]

No idea for what caused it but a powder flask in a saddlebag blew on the way back to the picket line. We had been on the field for the afternoon battle reenactment. No people or horses hurt but a not of smelly mess left in the wake.

No repeats as no more loose powder allowed on horseback. Still cringe when I see someone hold their powder can/flask up to their ear and shake it to guess how much powder is left.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

According to Goex's own MSDS, the federal bureau of mines has ignited black powder with electro static charges as little as 0.8 joules.

So contrary to the myths constantly being generated, static electricity of a rather low intensity has been tested and ignited black powder. Put that in yer pipe....

 

[hanshi]

I think it's a good idea to play it safe, in any event. While s.e. may or may not ignite bp, I will not take any chances and will practice safety at all times.

 

[Okie Hog]

Yep, i'm sure that static electricity can ignite black powder under the right circumstances.

There were numerous black powder explosions in coal mines back in the day. Growing up in WV i knew an old coal miner who had blackpowder embedded in his face and arms from an accident.

Black blasting powder is still used in granite and marble quarries. Black blasting powder is usually made with sodium nitrate is not graphited.

This miner is pouring back blackpowder in the glow of his miners light:

www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/UserFiles/works/pdfs/acobo.pdf

 

[necchi]

According to Goex's own MSDS, the federal bureau of mines has ignited black powder with electro static charges as little as 0.8 joules.

That's true,, but the info itself is meaningless unless we have the other data like voltage and amps and the method used.
In this particular exhibit it's also noted as "confined" meaning the powder was packed in a container with some sort of device set up to ignite it. We don't know if it was the heat of the static spark or the resulting heat of the electrodes used to create the discharge.

Before this topic digresses into another "plastic bottles are bad" thread we need to remember what the guy was doing;

The victim was bracing a foil cartridge case with a 2-inch piece of PVC pipe and pouring powder from a plastic bag.

That action is far from what most people do when using powder in our hobby.

 

[theoldredneck]

Electrical sparks can be a spark you can see and feel "OR," a arc that can blow red/white hot metal from the source or impact area like a welding rod or arc gouger. I poured a cap full of fff powder through a bug zapper without ignition. Also tried to ignite it with the spark from several electronic igniters. None would light it unless I added something the spark could burn. At that point it would ignite. The sparks from a flint type ignition source would instantly ignite it. Poured on the contacts of a contactor it will ignite when they open or close under load. Contacts will have a transfer of metal in the arc. That is why electrical controls in an explosive environment have to be in explosive tight panels. For electric sparks to ignite powder it needs to draw an arc that burns metal from impact as I understand. Can electricity ignite black powder, yes but how it does it is the trick. Think about like this you can buy a butane lighter with a electric spark ignition. The inline modern type muzzle loaders builders would use it if it was that cheap and easy. They could sell it as an alternative to caps or flint and bubba deer hunter would suck it up.

 

[nhmoose]

From The Artilleryman magazine, 2010”¦

Extracted from a list of black powder accidents”¦.

October 1998: Nashville, Ga. An SCV commander received facial injuries and singed hair when powder exploded as he was making up blank charges. The victim was bracing a foil cartridge case with a 2-inch piece of PVC pipe and pouring powder from a plastic bag.

Static electricity was assumed to be the cause of the explosion as he poured the fourth charge. “Pouring” black powder in quantity is not recommended and plastic and glass should not be used.


I suspect that something else was amiss, and that the victim simply let the static electricity theory stand without divulging what may have been a silly violation of safety rules as the real reason?

OR...given the right circumstances, it DOES set off the BP....

LD

No been discussed many times Internet bS

 

[wpjson]

Just as a kind of general thing, I do not want to see any sparks of any kind when I handle black powder.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Well nhmoose, if Goex cites a federal test that electrostatic charges have been CONFIRMED to ignite black powder, the Internet bs is the constant repition of a false notion that black powder can not be ignited by static.

Let's see, dry October day, wool reactor uniform, aluminum foil ,cannon grade Black powder and dust. Seems like the safety people were more likely correct than Internet myths.

 

[jfaldo]

Everyone seems to be obsessing with static electricity when maybe the idiot having a cigarette in his mouth is a bigger issue. Just saying.

 

[necchi]

if Goex cites a federal test that electrostatic charges have been CONFIRMED to ignite black powder, the Internet bs is the constant repition of a false notion that black powder can not be ignited by static.

I tried to explain above about the MSDS testing you site,, but you've your mind made up and that's OK.
Am I right in guessing that your an advocate of saving the old tin powder cans and immediately removing powder from the new evil plastic jugs and storing powder in the old tried and true tin cans?

 

[Jim C]

"Am I right in guessing that your an advocate of saving the old tin powder cans and immediately removing powder from the new evil plastic jugs and storing powder in the old tried and true tin cans?"

That's what I do, but only for the sake of nostalgia.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Well nhmoose, if Goex cites a federal test that electrostatic charges have been CONFIRMED to ignite black powder, the Internet bs is the constant repition of a false notion that black powder can not be ignited by static.

It's my understanding that BP "dust" can be set off by static, but then so can grain dust. Watching BP hit with static electricity and seeing nothing happen is pretty convincing.

As with many topics, nothing will be settled for those in different camps. People should just do what they feel is prudent. :v

 

[zimmerstutzen]

What was explained was that some black powder has a graphite coating which may be more difficult to ignite, other black powder does not have such a coating. How many guys have crushed some 2fg in a pinch to get fine powder for their pan? I don't for a second believe that the nuclear impervious coating is still intact in such powder.

I am still shooting some bulk black powder I purchased 24 years ago. Don't know if it is coated or not. Don't care. It goes boom with reasonable accuracy. I avoid sparks of any kind when the can is open

 

[necchi]

I'm sorry, are we reading the same GOEX MSDS or is there another one?
http://www.cossar.us/images/MSDS_GOEX_black_powder.pdf
The static test is from the Bureau of Mines on page 5. I see nothing about graphite or the lack of it(?)

 

[Dewey]

Here is the latest GOEX one:
http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/SDS Sheets-GOEX Black Powder.pdf

(MSDS became SDS in 2012)

 

[Zonie]

Interesting.
The 2014 dated SDS says in several places that static charges should be avoided but makes no mention of any tests to support the need.

The 2009 MSDS mentions :
"ELECTROSTATIC DISCHARGE TEST, BUREAU OF MINES 0.8 Joules Confined, 12.5 Joules Unconfined", but does not elaborate about what was involved in the test or if the subject powder passed or failed the test.

For you folks who skipped your Physics class on that day, a Joule is a metric way of measuring the amount of electrical energy needed to do some work.
One Joule is is equal to one Watt per second.

Digging deeper into the web I find the Sandia National Laboratories Report dealing with testing various powders and primers sensitivity to ESD (ElectroStatic Discharge)

Reading thru the "Sandia Report" which discusses the testing of over 30 different gun powders and many different primers,

http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/10131328

I find the static electricity was not applied to the exterior of the test powder.

Rather, the electric charge was discharged thru a .025" diameter needle embedded in the test powder and placed at a distance of .050 from a steel disk which served as the other electrode.

This in effect is similar to making a spark plug and piling the powder around the electrodes.

On page 19 of the Sandia Report it states:

" Section7.1: PowderResults
All of the powders were exposed to the standard and extended energy configurations.
There were no indications of sensitivities for any combination of powder and simulator
configuration and, as a result, Neyer sensitivity tests were not performed. These
results indicate that the powders are not sensitive to the HBESD stress environment,at
least for the given configuration of small quantities and semi-confinement. Only one sample was tested for each configuration,thus,the results cannot be defended in terms of a statistical assessment. However,given that no sample initiated,there is a basis for
considering that these materials are HBESD insensitive. To statistically confirm this,
additional testing is required."

Again on page 25 makes mention of the inability of Human Body Electro Static Discharge (HBESD) to ignite ANY of the powders being tested (which includes 4F Black Powder). It does say that HBESD can be a problem with percussion and electric primers.