Steel rod required

[BigDeutscher]

I just ordered a 12 foot length of cold rolled 5/16th bar stock
I will make 2 Cookson rods 1 for me.And one for sale.
I will use Brass for the Ram Rod Head
It will be trumpet shaped with a convex head and close to bore dia.Length of the taper of brass head. will be from nose to muzzle
Deutsch

 

[BigDeutscher]

In my first post of this thread ,I stated that I wanted to convert my Bess, to a steel Ram Rod.
Proper conversion to steel ,included cutting off 4 inches of barrel and the addition of a nose cap or wraping in brass to protect wood from steel
Plus a retaining spring added, to hold in the Rod.
I Like the 46 inch barrel ,so are Good Lady
Gazelda, will remain A King's Pattern
The Cookson Work continues.

 

[Cheyenne]

The pattern 1756 Long Land Pattern musket featured the full 46 inch barrel of the 1730 1740 pattern musketas,,,,,it was standard with the nose cap, trumpet front pipe and steel rod.

Many earlier muskets were converted to steel rods and brass bands on the forend.

 

[BigDeutscher]

I understand .
But I think if a musket was to be coverted to Steel as in my post.
The Conversion would be to a second model barrel length of 42
I am in no way saying they did not make Long Land 56 models with steel Rammers.

 

[BEP]

Here's another Indian-made repro that has the 46 inch barrel, a steel rammer and no nosecap or band. The seller claims that this variation is accurate (of course they would). So it can be done, especially with your demonstrated skills - http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket6.htm . Just a thought.

I enjoy your posts. You really do nice work and seem to be enjoying yourself. :hatsoff:

 

[BigDeutscher]

I am having fun with this
And thats what its all about
for me anyway.
Deutsch

 

[BigDeutscher]

Roy is Helping with the new Steel Ram Rod
He will be turning the heads sometime soon
And with his skills, I will be able to complete this conversion
Deutsch

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

There ya go, you've found an excellent source. :thumbsup:

 

[BigDeutscher]

I cant take a good picture!
But It came out nice ..good crisp threads
Deutsch

 

[JV Puleo]

No. Steel ramrods were fitted by the Ordnance. I know of no official program that ever shortened Long Land muskets to the Short Land configuration. Bailey doesn't mention such a program in his book and he would certainly have assigned such guns a Pattern designation if he thought they existed. As his book is based entirely on surviving documents, not on interpretations of modified guns, I think we would know if such a program existed. Lacking primary sources I think it is fantasy to presume this took place on any sort of regular basis. There is some speculation about this based on excavated pieces of musket barrel... but speculation is all that it is. Did some irregular units modify their muskets? I find even that to be very questionable as long as the guns were government property. How would you know from 8" of rusty musket barrel whether it was cut off an Orndance issued musket or one of the thousands of privately purchased non-Ordnance muskets of basically the same pattern? Many collectors cannot tell the difference between Ordnance guns and privately purchased examples ... often dealers make little or no effort to advertise the differences (even if they are aware of them, many are not that knowledgable) as the Ordnance guns are worth more and if the customer is prepared to fool himself... so much the better.

 

[BigDeutscher]

I am asking now... slow down
What you are saying is that if conversion to steel took place it was left 46 inches long?
This needs to be talked about
I said I was going to leave it 46 becouse I did not want a 42 inch
What do the rest of you think or did I not understand the last post?
I want to learn about this
Make decisions that are made with the advice of the well informed.
I am listening......
Deutsch :hmm:

 

[Cheyenne]

Ok Big D, I'll take a stab at this.....

1730 LLP 46" barrel with wood rammer
1740 LLP 46" barrel with wood rammer
1756 LLP, last of the Long Land Patterns, 46" barrel, steel rammer, cast brass nose cap, trumpeted first pipe.
1769 Short Land pattern, 42" barrel, nose cap & steel rammer....this is the common type that the Pedersoli is supposed to be a replica of.

Now, many of the earlier muskets were upgraded with steel rammers, usually with a brass latten band at the end of the for stock. Pipes were usually bushed for the smaller rod and a spring riveted in the entry pipe.

There are also differences in carvings, but these are the basics of the LLP.

Now, if you want to have fun, let's look at the 1744 Dragoon musket....looks just like the LLP, with a wood rammer, but with a 42" barrel!

 

[BigDeutscher]

Great info
So the way I see it .changing it to steel and keeping a barrel 46 long ,COULD be H/C?
Explain latten band ???
Deutsch

 

[Cheyenne]

Yes, converting to use a steel rammer is HC. The band is a brass band encirling the end of the for stock....used to reenforce the stock for use with the bayonet....

This is a 1730 with an band attached...it's common to find with either steel or wood rammers.

Take a look here for some good info
http://www.11thpa.org/Bess.html

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

B.D., you still need to buy some books. Not to denigrate your questions or some of the answers you have gotten, most are excellent. JV Puleo and Cheyenne in particular are making every effort to help and I know that you appreciate their time, but an accurate book on a subject always at hand, (we have given you recommendations), will give the best most consistent information as well as pleasure and they will save you much time and frustration in the future. Accurate books on a subject of interest are worth their weight in gold and will more than pay for themselves.

 

[JV Puleo]

Well put VA... I've hesitated to say what I have been thinking, primarily because I do not believe that any harm was ever intended. But, I have an ethical problem with the way this thread is developing. I've never been reluctant to share information from personal observation or rare published works. This is not the case here. All of the books we recommended are in print and reasonably priced. Gun books are what I do for a living. In the case of the books we both recommended, I personally know all of the authors... I know how much work they put into their work and I know how little renumeration they actually get from their work. While it may be legal to do so, I feel it is unethical to utilize the internet to gather information from readily available sources while avoiding having to pay for it. It isn't particularly fair to those collectors who did buy the book either. I don't know many workmen who willing give away the product of their labor and I don't see why anyone should.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Well put VA... I've hesitated to say what I have been thinking, primarily because I do not believe that any harm was ever intended. But, I have an ethical problem with the way this thread is developing. I've never been reluctant to share information from personal observation or rare published works. This is not the case here. All of the books we recommended are in print and reasonably priced. Gun books are what I do for a living. In the case of the books we both recommended, I personally know all of the authors... I know how much work they put into their work and I know how little renumeration they actually get from their work. While it may be legal to do so, I feel it is unethical to utilize the internet to gather information from readily available sources while avoiding having to pay for it. It isn't particularly fair to those collectors who did buy the book either. I don't know many workmen who willing give away the product of their labor and I don't see why anyone should.

BRAVO! :hatsoff: I have been trtying to get that point across here for years.

 

[tg]

I would suggest letting all who ask the questions find their own answers, most just argue about the facts anyway when they are not convienient.

 

[BigDeutscher]

Mr Hern
I want all the books you told me about
And most are available through are library
exchange program.
My wife is having some health problems and my resources are very limited
I hope my questions are not out of line
I assumed that this was a good place to find the info I need without spending alot of money
Good books are expensive as you know
So for now I will have to ask the folks here to help me in my quest for knowledge
Deutsch

 

[Cheyenne]

BigD, I understand the situation, we're caring for my mother in law who's battling cancer...will keep your wife in our prayers.

Now, on books, one that is really good, and not too exspensive is De Witt Baileys "Pattern Dates for British Ordnance Small Arms 1718-1783"....TOW has it for 17.95 and it's worth every penny...and if you order it, and go to their specials page, you can add 3 Bess flints for free to your order!

I have the books, now working on the gun....hoping Mike Brooks runs across another 1st model and goes to sell it...seems last one he had was really priced right.

If I can help, I'll be happy to. :thumbsup: