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a bird with its wings down as in a standard turkey opportunity will probably very rarely be brought down with a body shot.. breaking the wing wont do any good as they will run away...the wings act as a damper to the shot, then you have to go thru the inside body feathers, then thru the meat to get to the vitals.. turkeys are generally killed with a good pattern and number 6 shot.. buy some turkey targets that have a picuture of the turkeys head and its brain and spine on it.. shoot this target with your loads and decide what load will give you the most hits in the vitals of this target... dave.
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A couple things you might try. First to test your penetration, is to shoot at a 303 steel/iron/tin vegatable or fruit can at 25 yds. If your shot pierces the can you should have enough energy. Second to possibly reduce your blowout with a higher charge, try using three over powder cards, and no wad. The cards will not shoot thru your pattern and blow a hole in it, like the wad will. In my fusil de chasse 20 ga. I use 80 gr. of FFG., with three over powder cards, 90 gr. of #6 shot, and an overshot card. I'm gonna experiment with two overpowder cards over the shot, so that I only have to carry one kind of card, and really simplify things.
Bill
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Bill
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From a pressure/velocity point of view, 70grns 3F powder seems a tad light to me in that large volume .12ga bore unless you limit yourself to close shots only.willy8457 said:
I use 80grns Goex 3F in the smaller volume .62cal/20ga bore:
One .20ga Oxyoke prelubed wonderwad
1+5/8oz #6's
Circle Fly OS card
paulvallandigham
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YOu don't tell us the gauge, or what size shot you are using. 70 grains in a 20 gauge smoothbore, or shotgun will do fine if you also use #6 or #5 shot. How the gun patterns depends on if its choked, and if not, the total combination of loading components you choose. A major problem for shotgun shooters is the habit of heavy cushion wads following the shot, and putting a hole in the middle of the pattern, scattering the shot in unknown directions, shot after shot.
Iron Jim has suggested a good idea, and that is to use only OverShot( OS) cards( wafers) in loading the gun. These thin cards weigh less than the shot pellets, so they drop out of the line of shot as soon as they leave the muzzle. They do not bust the patterns. He uses 4 OS cards over the powder, putting a hole towards the outside of EACH card, and then aligning the holes at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock so that each seals the one before. The holes allow air to separate the cards on leaving the muzzle so that they all fall apart and down, away from the shot in front. He uses 2 OS cards on top of the shot to hold the shot load in place.
Lubricating the barrel can be done two ways. Use a cleaning patch with lots of lube on it to wipe the barrel after loading the charge, or put a dab of lube on the underside of a 5th OS card, and put that on top of the rirst four cards you put over the powder. Those two cards on each side of the lube may stick together, but they will still fall away from the shot, and not bother that pattern. b
Jim reports getting good patterns with this method, and patterns tight enough for him to shoot turkeys at over 30 yards with his open bore gun.I don't recall his load.
However, You will benefit from Reading V.M. Starr's arcticle on MuzzleLoading Shotguns at Bob Spenser's Black Powder Note book site,
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]
I think you find the information there will help you developing a load that will produce good results.
Paul
Iron Jim has suggested a good idea, and that is to use only OverShot( OS) cards( wafers) in loading the gun. These thin cards weigh less than the shot pellets, so they drop out of the line of shot as soon as they leave the muzzle. They do not bust the patterns. He uses 4 OS cards over the powder, putting a hole towards the outside of EACH card, and then aligning the holes at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock so that each seals the one before. The holes allow air to separate the cards on leaving the muzzle so that they all fall apart and down, away from the shot in front. He uses 2 OS cards on top of the shot to hold the shot load in place.
Lubricating the barrel can be done two ways. Use a cleaning patch with lots of lube on it to wipe the barrel after loading the charge, or put a dab of lube on the underside of a 5th OS card, and put that on top of the rirst four cards you put over the powder. Those two cards on each side of the lube may stick together, but they will still fall away from the shot, and not bother that pattern. b
Jim reports getting good patterns with this method, and patterns tight enough for him to shoot turkeys at over 30 yards with his open bore gun.I don't recall his load.
However, You will benefit from Reading V.M. Starr's arcticle on MuzzleLoading Shotguns at Bob Spenser's Black Powder Note book site,
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url]
I think you find the information there will help you developing a load that will produce good results.
Paul
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I prefer to use a single .250 card wad, over powder, but use an 1/8 inch thick slice of felt wad over shot.
In my experience, the slice of felt wad holds the shot securely in place and breaks up on firing to give better patterns.
If anyone tries shooting at the tin can to assess penetration, fill it with water to give it some "body".
Empty powder cans also work well to assess penetration.
In my experience, the slice of felt wad holds the shot securely in place and breaks up on firing to give better patterns.
If anyone tries shooting at the tin can to assess penetration, fill it with water to give it some "body".
Empty powder cans also work well to assess penetration.
paulvallandigham
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JD> The reason for using a vegetable " tin can " instead of an aluminum pop or beer can is to see if the shot will penetrate both sides. If you put water in the can, you get a nice explosion, but it doesn't tell you much. The whole idea is to see how much energy each pellet retains at a given range, to penetrate both sides of the can. These cans are still made of sheet steel that is tin plated.
If you only have aluminum cans available, then put water in them. Anyting can pierce the front side of an aluminum can because its so soft. What damage a pellet can do after hitting the water is worth checking out. I doubt many pellets will penetrate the water, and Both Sides of the can, but you may get a few dents.
If you only have aluminum cans available, then put water in them. Anyting can pierce the front side of an aluminum can because its so soft. What damage a pellet can do after hitting the water is worth checking out. I doubt many pellets will penetrate the water, and Both Sides of the can, but you may get a few dents.
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70 grains is a light load. Try using 3 drams (82 1/2 grains) of 2FG behind 1 1/4 ounces of shot. Get rid of the cushion wads and overpowder wads. Seat 4 overshot cards on top of the powder. Load 1 1/4 ounces of #5 or #6 shot. Top off with 2 overshot wads. To ease loading, puncture the cards at 12 o'clock with an awl. When loading arrange the holes at 12,3,6, & 9 o'clock.
My son and I went pheasnt hunting today and didn't put up a single bird. When we came home I shot a dozen clays with a dozen shots. Closest clay was about 20 yards, and the furthest was just under 40 yards. Do misses for 12 shots. At 20 yards I was dusting the clays. At 35 yards and beyond I was breaking the clays into multiple bits.
Having used up the #6 shotloads on flying clays, I shot a muzzleloading turkey silhouette at 35 yards with 1 1/4 ounces of #5 shot. The silhouette is cut out of 1/4" steel and is pretty close to life size. I easily toppled the turkey. I don't know how many pellets hit it, since it's a steel target, but the #5 hit hard and dense enough to topple a silhouette that weighed over 5 pounds.Not very scientific but fun anyway.
My son and I went pheasnt hunting today and didn't put up a single bird. When we came home I shot a dozen clays with a dozen shots. Closest clay was about 20 yards, and the furthest was just under 40 yards. Do misses for 12 shots. At 20 yards I was dusting the clays. At 35 yards and beyond I was breaking the clays into multiple bits.
Having used up the #6 shotloads on flying clays, I shot a muzzleloading turkey silhouette at 35 yards with 1 1/4 ounces of #5 shot. The silhouette is cut out of 1/4" steel and is pretty close to life size. I easily toppled the turkey. I don't know how many pellets hit it, since it's a steel target, but the #5 hit hard and dense enough to topple a silhouette that weighed over 5 pounds.Not very scientific but fun anyway.
Hi there, Re your loads, there are many ways to load, but at the end of the day the shot has to have enough energy to either penetrate and cleanly kill your prey or dust that clay at a distance you like to shoot at. The best place to sort this out is on the pattern board. My load for clays is this:- 3 Drams (82grn) FFF, thick over card (not a tight fit), a thick waxed felt wad (liquid lude is ok if you are going to shoot your load quickly as it can infect the powder), then another thick card, 1&1/4oz No7 for DTL clays (Flint) & No9 for DTL/skeet (Perc), topped off with a light fitting thin over shot card, but please note I'm a fast trap shooter, so shot size may have to be increased to get the energy required to dust that clay. I can't comment on loads for game as you guys in the States cannot use lead. As I said all your testing should be on the pattern board, as all ML fowlers/shotguns shoot differently, you'll find what works best for you and your shotgun there, happy shooting.
paulvallandigham
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Clayman: I don't know where you get the idea that we don't use lead shot in the USA, but you are very mistaken. We just can't use it to shoot Waterfowl, like Geese and Ducks. Other migratory birds are shot with lead shot, and nesting birds are all shot using lead shot. The size of the bird pretty well dictates the size of the shot used.
I don't understand why you don't use tight wads over your powder charge. You are losing velocity to gas leakage when you don't use a tight wad. I started with my fowler working on a round ball load, as it make it easier to check the loading components, using a single projectile, than using shot. I quickly learned that my barrel was oversized, and I ordered 19 gauge wads to use in my " 20 gauge " gun. I had an immediate increase of 20% in velocity over what I was getting when I used standard 20 ga. wads in my gun.
Iron Jim Racham has now written several times here on the forums about using only overshot (OS) cards in his gun. He uses 4 OS cards, instead of a 1/8" thick overpowder card wad and a cushion wad, under his shot loads. He uses two OS cards on top of the shot. Here's why. He puts holes in each of the thin cards out towards the rim, and then orients the cards at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock as he loads them down the barrel. No hole in a card allows gase to escape because they cover each other. The two card on top of the shot are used so no small shot, if he uses this on clay targets or dove, for instance, will pour through the hole.
The holes in the cards all air to separate the cards as they leave the muzzle, so that they fall to the ground quickly, and do not follow the shot downrange. Those of us who have used the traditional hard overpowder card, then a cushion wad soak in moose milk, or lubed, then shot, then an OS card, found that the cushion wad weighed too much and would blow a hole in the pattern by following it out the barrel. We have experiemented with use only 1/2 or 1/3 of a cushion wad to reduce that weight, and stop the wads from following the shot and blowing the patterns, with some success. Jim Rackham seems to have a better idea. At least you don't have to carry three different wads to load your shotgun. I was already using an awl to put a hole in the center of my OS cards so I could get them down on top of the shot in some reasonable amount of time. Putting holes to the outside of the card so I can arange the cards like Jim recommends is a minor change in my pre-shoot plans. Leaving the other wads home is going to be a blessing.
YOu might want to read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook to get great loading information. In my 12 gauge shotgun a 2 dram load just doesn't produce very good patterns. I am going to retest all the powder charges with Jim Rackham's technique, to see if its the powder or the wads that gave me the indifferent patterns. In my 20 gauge fowler, I see no need to use more than 2 3/4 dram of powder and 1 1/4 oz. of shot. Most of my upland game loads are in the 2 1/2 dram/ 7/8 oz range.
I don't understand why you don't use tight wads over your powder charge. You are losing velocity to gas leakage when you don't use a tight wad. I started with my fowler working on a round ball load, as it make it easier to check the loading components, using a single projectile, than using shot. I quickly learned that my barrel was oversized, and I ordered 19 gauge wads to use in my " 20 gauge " gun. I had an immediate increase of 20% in velocity over what I was getting when I used standard 20 ga. wads in my gun.
Iron Jim Racham has now written several times here on the forums about using only overshot (OS) cards in his gun. He uses 4 OS cards, instead of a 1/8" thick overpowder card wad and a cushion wad, under his shot loads. He uses two OS cards on top of the shot. Here's why. He puts holes in each of the thin cards out towards the rim, and then orients the cards at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock as he loads them down the barrel. No hole in a card allows gase to escape because they cover each other. The two card on top of the shot are used so no small shot, if he uses this on clay targets or dove, for instance, will pour through the hole.
The holes in the cards all air to separate the cards as they leave the muzzle, so that they fall to the ground quickly, and do not follow the shot downrange. Those of us who have used the traditional hard overpowder card, then a cushion wad soak in moose milk, or lubed, then shot, then an OS card, found that the cushion wad weighed too much and would blow a hole in the pattern by following it out the barrel. We have experiemented with use only 1/2 or 1/3 of a cushion wad to reduce that weight, and stop the wads from following the shot and blowing the patterns, with some success. Jim Rackham seems to have a better idea. At least you don't have to carry three different wads to load your shotgun. I was already using an awl to put a hole in the center of my OS cards so I could get them down on top of the shot in some reasonable amount of time. Putting holes to the outside of the card so I can arange the cards like Jim recommends is a minor change in my pre-shoot plans. Leaving the other wads home is going to be a blessing.
YOu might want to read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook to get great loading information. In my 12 gauge shotgun a 2 dram load just doesn't produce very good patterns. I am going to retest all the powder charges with Jim Rackham's technique, to see if its the powder or the wads that gave me the indifferent patterns. In my 20 gauge fowler, I see no need to use more than 2 3/4 dram of powder and 1 1/4 oz. of shot. Most of my upland game loads are in the 2 1/2 dram/ 7/8 oz range.
I learnt from Mr Starr to only use two thick cards between powder and shot. Doing this I,ve shot wood cock with a 10g fowler and the highest driven pheasant ever. Decoyed pidgeon and fast partridge. Duck and squirrel with a 12.
Now if I would dump powder from a cartridge and dump the paper down bore before any cards I would get blown patterns . You don,t need fancy wads unless your partic gun dictates it won,t function any other way, what I mean is wads- thick wads are for me a last resort not the default setting :thumbsup:
Now if I would dump powder from a cartridge and dump the paper down bore before any cards I would get blown patterns . You don,t need fancy wads unless your partic gun dictates it won,t function any other way, what I mean is wads- thick wads are for me a last resort not the default setting :thumbsup:
