Storing flints in water keeps 'em fresh.

[Halftail]

I’m working on the Chesapeake Bay for a couple of weeks. After reading this I took a moment to mosey over to a colonial wharf and pick up a knob of flint from period ballast waste..

There is a spot like that here in Nova Scotia where a friend of mine picked up a few large buckets of the "Colonial Ballast".I never been to it but I'd love to go scrounge around for flint.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hi

Any truth to this or just a myth?

Interesting stuff. I knew about the heat treating to lower the lithic properties (hardness) of the flint making it easier to work, but had never heard of using water. Usually you wanted to get all the water to dry out of it before you heat treated it so it didn't crack or shatter. Now we're saying soaking it in water is a good thing? :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

In that nice article that a link was posted to, it explains very nicely about why we heat treat to lower the lithic properties. When we do that, we make it EASIER to break, not harder to break.

I would think that we would want a flint that was as hard as possible so it doesn't wear as quickly. Lowering the lithic properties makes it break more easily... So it just doesn't sound right to me. The guy knapping the rock wants it to be easier to break so he can work it more easily. The guy using it wants it to be harder to break so it lasts longer...hmmmm???

HELP MIKE BROOKS.....we need your help here.

If Mike Brooks would pop in here(he's a mineralogist)...he could clear this question right up for us.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:

 

[fallaloosa]

and keep some of us occupied and safely away from doing anything that might actually be productive!) Heh heh heh. Yeah you just might be right on that one!! I hate being too productive sometimes :grin:

 

[JackAubrey]

Very interesting.I have some original flints for brown bess muskets that were knapped in1806 and sank in a shipwreck.There they sat for maybe 150 + years.Maybe I should try one.I never used them just kept them in my chest.Best regards,J.A.

 

[scott k]

This is from 1793-94.
When the nodules come out of theearth they sometimes contain to much moisture which may be seen when flaking them and which colectcts at the center in droplets. These cannot be worked properly. The flint workers let them dry for a few hours in the summer in the sun, in the winter by the fire. But those that have been exposed too long to the sun and the open air, like those found on the surface, cannot ge worked any more. The merchants who store gun flints are careful to keep them in a cool, closed place.
(from a report by citizen salivet The making of gun flints in the departments of indre and loir-et-cher As in the book indian trade guns)
I don't know it's in the book :shocked2:
I don't keep my flints in water.
Lehigh...

 

[roundball]

Just a general comment from an article I read somewhere:
During a Flint mining operation (modern times) removing large chunks of flint from a quarry, one large chunk broke open and a lot of water (gallon, gallons) came spilling out of it...had been trapped inside that block of flint since whenever that flint formation was created, and that water obviously didn't get absorbed into all the flint surrounding it.

 

I have avoided this--we have discussed it before. But here goes. Flint (chert) can have micro porosity and can have water in it. The question is whether or not it will absorb water in a jar etc. and whether or not that "helps" the flint in use. As for water bound in the "lattice" someone mentioned--yeah you can probably drive some off with heat, but taking it back in through sitting in water is a different matter. Chert [flint] formed originally in a water-rich environment and water can be taken up within its structure. Some chert containd amorphous opalline SiO2 which can contain water too. But in general the quality flints used for knapping have no [or very microscopic] pores. Do you remember surface tension from your HS physics? Capillary pressure? stuff like like? The tiny pores may not allow water passage. Cherts can be aquifers (water carriers) in nature, where in situ they are bedded rocks--via fracture networks in the rocks much more so than pores (which can exist). The famous Hot Springs of Arkansas are thought to be related to fractured chert aquifers. Heard of Washita stones and Hard Arkansas stones? Both chert [novaculite]and identical in composition, but the Washita stone has a little porosity, which gives it a more "granular" feel, thus it cuts steel better than the "Hard" variety, which has the same hardness, but is "smoother" (essentially no porosity) and polishes the steel [think in terms of coarse versus fine sandpaper for the effect, although cause is different]. Flint put in water, if fractured or porous, could take up a little water--but I see no advantage to that, in fact it might mask weaknesses in the flint. The best flint for knapping has no fractures or significant porosity. Chert [flint] is micro- to crypto-crystalline silica. Sometimes it contains opal (noncrystalline silica), water and impurities (calcite, fossils, silt, clay, organics, etc). This means that pores [spaces between the microcrystals] are very tiny IF THEY EXIST. Typically the pores are full of natural cements such as more silica or calcite. Sometimes the calcite can be dissolved out "restoring" the porosity. But in general I think you can safely ignore the water soaking....
P.S. I left out the permeability factor--chert [flint] is typically impermeable, which means water wont' penetrate very far into it, even if the pores are present.

 

[Jeffrey Hecht]

My head hurts, :surrender: I mean no disrespect to anyone with that commit as always I respect everyone's opinion's and commit's. This just makes me think too hard.
Jeff

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike Thanks for the geology lesson. I was hoping you would come on and explain why this talk about soaking flints in water is next to silly. For some folks, who have never had a geology class, and are not willing to look up the terms you have used in your post, that has to be a very hard read. My heart goes out to them.

I did have a college geology course, albeit many years ago( 40) but I followed you well. Nice job.
:hatsoff:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I have avoided this--we have discussed it before. But here goes. Flint (chert) can have micro porosity and can have water in it. The question is whether or not it will absorb water in a jar etc. and whether or not that "helps" the flint in use. As for water bound in the "lattice" someone mentioned--yeah you can probably drive some off with heat, but taking it back in through sitting in water is a different matter. Chert [flint] formed originally in a water-rich environment and water can be taken up within its structure. Some chert containd amorphous opalline SiO2 which can contain water too. But in general the quality flints used for knapping have no [or very microscopic] pores. Do you remember surface tension from your HS physics? Capillary pressure? stuff like like? The tiny pores may not allow water passage. Cherts can be aquifers (water carriers) in nature, where in situ they are bedded rocks--via fracture networks in the rocks much more so than pores (which can exist). The famous Hot Springs of Arkansas are thought to be related to fractured chert aquifers. Heard of Washita stones and Hard Arkansas stones? Both chert [novaculite]and identical in composition, but the Washita stone has a little porosity, which gives it a more "granular" feel, thus it cuts steel better than the "Hard" variety, which has the same hardness, but is "smoother" (essentially no porosity) and polishes the steel [think in terms of coarse versus fine sandpaper for the effect, although cause is different]. Flint put in water, if fractured or porous, could take up a little water--but I see no advantage to that, in fact it might mask weaknesses in the flint. The best flint for knapping has no fractures or significant porosity. Chert [flint] is micro- to crypto-crystalline silica. Sometimes it contains opal (noncrystalline silica), water and impurities (calcite, fossils, silt, clay, organics, etc). This means that pores [spaces between the microcrystals] are very tiny IF THEY EXIST. Typically the pores are full of natural cements such as more silica or calcite. Sometimes the calcite can be dissolved out "restoring" the porosity. But in general I think you can safely ignore the water soaking....
P.S. I left out the permeability factor--chert [flint] is typically impermeable, which means water wont' penetrate very far into it, even if the pores are present.

LOL... Thanks Mike, I was hoping you'd chime in.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff: