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Stuck ball in a charged rifle
- Thread starter jtlancer
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I was hoping that a pressured gas container would generate more than 120 PSI. We will see.
My big worry is that there was a soft spot between the barrel bore and the narrow patent breech...perhaps caused by a spot of rust or pitting. If the solid brass scrapper got wedged into that "pit", it may take quite a bit of pressure to remove it.
fjb, there is a good seal. After I stuck the scrapper, I wiped the barrel with a patch and bore butter to try and protect the work I had already done. When pulling the rod out the barrel there was a large suction pulling the rod back down into the barrel...like when you are cleaning a barrel in a bucket of hot, sudsy water. So I'm really sure there is a tight seal between the scrapper and the patent breech. Grenadier, that is my concern about shooting it out. If I use 5 or 10 grains of powder and it doesn't come out, that pressure needs to come out somewhere. That could only be through the flashhole/nipple. Could that put too much pressure on the lock? Shooting it out would be my choice for a stuck ball, but this scrapper has me worried as to the amount of pressure that would be required to remove it. So, for the sake of safety, I think I've talked myself into trying the CO2 dislodger, followed by the zerk fitting/grease gun and, if necessary, try to shoot it out as a last resort. If I do try to shoot it out, it'll be vised onto a table and fired with a looooooooog string.
Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. It really has helped. I will post the results.
Jerry
fjb, there is a good seal. After I stuck the scrapper, I wiped the barrel with a patch and bore butter to try and protect the work I had already done. When pulling the rod out the barrel there was a large suction pulling the rod back down into the barrel...like when you are cleaning a barrel in a bucket of hot, sudsy water. So I'm really sure there is a tight seal between the scrapper and the patent breech. Grenadier, that is my concern about shooting it out. If I use 5 or 10 grains of powder and it doesn't come out, that pressure needs to come out somewhere. That could only be through the flashhole/nipple. Could that put too much pressure on the lock? Shooting it out would be my choice for a stuck ball, but this scrapper has me worried as to the amount of pressure that would be required to remove it. So, for the sake of safety, I think I've talked myself into trying the CO2 dislodger, followed by the zerk fitting/grease gun and, if necessary, try to shoot it out as a last resort. If I do try to shoot it out, it'll be vised onto a table and fired with a looooooooog string.
Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas. It really has helped. I will post the results.
Jerry
The pressure in a CO2 cylinder changes with the temperature. The warmer it is the higher the pressure. Now if this is used out side on a cold day it may not work the pressure maybe to low. CO2 is like most refrigerants R12, R22, R134, R409 etc the pressure drops with the temperature.
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Yep, any muzzleloader i acquire that won't do that soon goes away.
Forgive me but we have to leave the normal discussions about muzzleloaders long enough to explain what is happening here.
CO2 gas becomes a liquid when it is compressed to 852.8 pounds per square inch of pressure at 70° F. The pressure required at higher temperatures is slightly higher.
Those CO2 cartridges are basically filled with this liquid while that pressure is being applied to it. As long as the liquid is kept at that pressure, it remains a liquid.
When the liquid is released from the cartridge the liquid changes back into a gas at a slightly lower pressure. Of course, the volume of the released gas is much greater than the volume of the liquid it once was and this large volume of gas provides the means of shooting a pellet or blowing a stuck ball or bullet in a muzzleloaders barrel out of it.
The fact that the remaining CO2 in the cartridge remains a liquid explains why the cartridge will continue to deliver the same amount of pressure or force until the last few "shots" with a pellet gun for instance are made. Then, the pressure drops off very rapidly and suddenly and the pellet gun or muzzleloading ball ejector will stop working.
A better explanation of this is in the link below.
https://www.airgundepot.com/vault/articles/co2-cartridge-pressure/
Fabulous article. Thank you for the link.
Jerry
Jerry
The CO2 dislodger came. It did not work.
Now step 2.
Now step 2.
Professor flintlock
40 Cal
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sounds like the rifle wasn't breeched properly and the scraper got caught in the gap what your scraper loosened is cloging the ignition channel . Shooting might work (brass is alot softer than steel) But you might wind up peening over the edge of the brass scraper. Pull your nipple and clean the channel good. Don't put a bunch of 4f in the ignition channel. 5 grains should be more than enough if you decide to try and shoot it out. De breaching the barrel sounds like the best idea in this case. Find a gunsmith with a debreaching wrench.
Pipe wrench or big crescent wrench just won't cut it. While the breach plug is out have him properly fit the breech. What brand of rifle is it? Might make a good prybar. Good luck.
Hi, Professor Flintlock,
It is a TC Renegade 50 Cal. Serial # 176XXX. Stock is in good shape. The barrel is looking good after a lot of steel wool and bore butter. Finding a gunsmith in these parts is tough. I'd like to be able to shoot it, but at this point I'm getting close to where too much more is not going to be the pragmatic thing to do.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Jerry
It is a TC Renegade 50 Cal. Serial # 176XXX. Stock is in good shape. The barrel is looking good after a lot of steel wool and bore butter. Finding a gunsmith in these parts is tough. I'd like to be able to shoot it, but at this point I'm getting close to where too much more is not going to be the pragmatic thing to do.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Jerry
Professor flintlock
40 Cal
- Joined
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Usually TC does a good job of breeching their barrels. With that being said shoot it out. Just clean out the ignition channel and make sure it's dry. Nothing else down the barrel? TC's have a stepped breech . Smaller diameter at the bottom ,then a little bigger then bore size. I've seen breech's with a build up of carbon that was over an inch thick with a small hole in it from the ignition channel . If you get the scrapper out pour some Hoppes Nine Plus down the bore before scraping again to soften it up. TC's are extremely difficult to debreech. Have seen barrels twisted before. If you decide to do it your self clamp the barrel as close to the breech as you can. TOW or Midway might have a wrench. Brownells for sure. You need a wrench that has two bolts clamping the two halves of the wrench together. You also have to apply heat. Not red hot but hot and a liberal amount of elbow grease. I think they used lock tight in the day so you have to get it at least 400 degrees. Good luck. If you live close to north central Ohio I'll help you.
Rudall
40 Cal
I don’t believe that this question was ever answered. I may well be missing something, but isn’t this the crux of the entire problem? As I envisage it, a flat scraper is stuck in a round hole. Therefore there will be a huge gap and no amount of CO2, grease or shooting it out is going to have the slightest effect. Right? Wrong?
Hi, Rudall,
I put an endoscope down the bore. It clearly shows the scraper stuck in the step down breech. It is at the front of the breech where it narrows. It looks like it's good and straight but stuck. When I "mop" the barrel with a heavy dab of bore butter on a patch, there is quite a bit of suction I need to overcome as I try to withdraw the patch. It is similar to the "pumping" action one feels when they wash a breech hooked barrel in a bucket of water and use the ram rod to pump the water in and out of the barrel...but stronger. It is not in a bucket of water, so, and this is always dangerous, I assume there is a very tight seal between the barrel and the vent hole behind the obstruction. When I used the CO2 dislodger, I pressed on the nozzle pretty hard, let the CO2 dispenser do its thing, nothing until I moved the dislodger. I even tried holding it there and giving it multiple shots in a row after individual shots didn't work. I used up two of the three containers that came with the dislodger.
A word of caution, expanding compressed gases have a dramatic cooling effect. they include a cover for the CO2 cartridge for a reason. When I removed the cover to change the cartridge, there was a heavy frost on it. Be careful.
I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Thanks for the feedback.
Jerry
I put an endoscope down the bore. It clearly shows the scraper stuck in the step down breech. It is at the front of the breech where it narrows. It looks like it's good and straight but stuck. When I "mop" the barrel with a heavy dab of bore butter on a patch, there is quite a bit of suction I need to overcome as I try to withdraw the patch. It is similar to the "pumping" action one feels when they wash a breech hooked barrel in a bucket of water and use the ram rod to pump the water in and out of the barrel...but stronger. It is not in a bucket of water, so, and this is always dangerous, I assume there is a very tight seal between the barrel and the vent hole behind the obstruction. When I used the CO2 dislodger, I pressed on the nozzle pretty hard, let the CO2 dispenser do its thing, nothing until I moved the dislodger. I even tried holding it there and giving it multiple shots in a row after individual shots didn't work. I used up two of the three containers that came with the dislodger.
A word of caution, expanding compressed gases have a dramatic cooling effect. they include a cover for the CO2 cartridge for a reason. When I removed the cover to change the cartridge, there was a heavy frost on it. Be careful.
I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Thanks for the feedback.
Jerry
Rudall,
As I reread your post I noticed something. The flat end of the scraper is fully inside the stepped down breech. The front of the round body of the scraper is stuck in the stepped down breech as well. So it is a round stopper caught in a round pipe...like a cork in a bottle which is not fully seated into the bottle. It is a round obstruction stuck in a round hole.
Hope that clarifies it better.
Jerry
As I reread your post I noticed something. The flat end of the scraper is fully inside the stepped down breech. The front of the round body of the scraper is stuck in the stepped down breech as well. So it is a round stopper caught in a round pipe...like a cork in a bottle which is not fully seated into the bottle. It is a round obstruction stuck in a round hole.
Hope that clarifies it better.
Jerry
That chambered breech will always prevent a breech scraper from getting into the breech to remove the fouling. The soft brass can peen and jam at the entry to the chambered breech. Not only that but there will likely be a few gaps that even when suction is felt when pulling a dampened patch, there may still be room for the high pressure gas to escape without moving the stuck scraper.
There have been so many similar threads on this topic that I am not sure if @PaJerry has answered the question about air leakage. When you pumped with the Bore Buttered patch, did the vacuum go away if you left the patch in the bore? Leakage should be apparent when using the CO2 discharger. Sometimes the stuck object can be discharged and one doesn't notice that it has left the barrel. I recall one instance at the range that the high pressure air was used several times to no obvious effect only to find out when the ram rod was used to find if the dry ball had moved, it was discovered to have been discharged. I am sure you still have the stuck scraper.
Now its time to go one to the next step. There is sufficient blockage to feel suction with the lubricated patch. There will be enough blockage for the impulse from a charge of powder of 5 to no more than 10 grains to blow it out. Remove the nipple. Clean the flash channel with a dry pipe cleaner to remove any moisture that might be in the chambered breech from the cleaning. Maybe even some rubbing alcohol to further dry the breech. There is no way that even 10 grains of 4fg will generate enough pressure to do harm to the breech and since the impulse from the discharge of powder will generate even more pressure than the CO2 discharger, the scarper should be discharged. It will come out with some force so point the muzzle at something that won't get harmed by the flying scraper. A gallon jug of water would do if you want to retrieve the scraper.
If you go the grease gun method, insert your ram rod in the bore marked with the position so you can see if the scraper is moved. When the rod moves, remove the rod to see if there is grease on the tip indicating that the scraper is being moved by the grease. If the scraper is being moved, then use your last canister of CO2 to blow it all out.
Last and final resort is to pull the breech plug. There is a Breech Plug Removal Tool (no longer offered by Thompson Center) often available on E-Bay. My search today only revealed one for the T/C Seneca with a 13/16" across the flats barrel. You need the one for a 1" across the flats Renegade and none were found.
Note: When clamping a barrel in a well padded vise, make sure the jaws are ahead of the threaded breech. You do not want the vise to clamp the barrel threads to the breech threads. You should be able to find a black powder qualified gunsmith in Pennsylvania. At least give Dixon's a call. It may be time for a road trip.
There have been so many similar threads on this topic that I am not sure if @PaJerry has answered the question about air leakage. When you pumped with the Bore Buttered patch, did the vacuum go away if you left the patch in the bore? Leakage should be apparent when using the CO2 discharger. Sometimes the stuck object can be discharged and one doesn't notice that it has left the barrel. I recall one instance at the range that the high pressure air was used several times to no obvious effect only to find out when the ram rod was used to find if the dry ball had moved, it was discovered to have been discharged. I am sure you still have the stuck scraper.
Now its time to go one to the next step. There is sufficient blockage to feel suction with the lubricated patch. There will be enough blockage for the impulse from a charge of powder of 5 to no more than 10 grains to blow it out. Remove the nipple. Clean the flash channel with a dry pipe cleaner to remove any moisture that might be in the chambered breech from the cleaning. Maybe even some rubbing alcohol to further dry the breech. There is no way that even 10 grains of 4fg will generate enough pressure to do harm to the breech and since the impulse from the discharge of powder will generate even more pressure than the CO2 discharger, the scarper should be discharged. It will come out with some force so point the muzzle at something that won't get harmed by the flying scraper. A gallon jug of water would do if you want to retrieve the scraper.
If you go the grease gun method, insert your ram rod in the bore marked with the position so you can see if the scraper is moved. When the rod moves, remove the rod to see if there is grease on the tip indicating that the scraper is being moved by the grease. If the scraper is being moved, then use your last canister of CO2 to blow it all out.
Last and final resort is to pull the breech plug. There is a Breech Plug Removal Tool (no longer offered by Thompson Center) often available on E-Bay. My search today only revealed one for the T/C Seneca with a 13/16" across the flats barrel. You need the one for a 1" across the flats Renegade and none were found.
Note: When clamping a barrel in a well padded vise, make sure the jaws are ahead of the threaded breech. You do not want the vise to clamp the barrel threads to the breech threads. You should be able to find a black powder qualified gunsmith in Pennsylvania. At least give Dixon's a call. It may be time for a road trip.
Grenadier,
You have given me some things to think about. Thank you. I will update when I try the next step.
Jerry
You have given me some things to think about. Thank you. I will update when I try the next step.
Jerry
Rudall
40 Cal
Of course I can’t see what you can, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it is the flat blade of the scraper that is stuck in the constricted section of the breech and the round part of the scraper isn’t fully in. Hence leakage when you tried the CO2.
Have you tried shooting it out? Sometimes the violent movement of the gas from the powder can cause things to lose their grip in the barrel and be blown out with the gas.
If the scraper is plugging up most of the powder chamber (the small cavity the scraper is stuck in), it may be necessary to work some loose powder down into the fire channel hole between the nipple and the bore. Fill the flame channel with as much powder as you can. If there is any space at all between the scraper and the wall of the powder chamber, the flames from the fire channel should be enough to ignite the main powder charge.
If the gun does fire, reload and shoot it again several times.
It's worth a try but this needs to be done before you try putting any grease or fluids into the bore.
Thanks be to Heaven...it's out!
I ran the endoscope down again this morning mostly because I wanted to take a picture of what I was seeing in the bore. I guess the CO2 dislodger had done some good. There was a little row of dots of light on the one side of the scraper and the scraper did not appear to be as "straight" in the bore. So I carefully ran a bore butter patch down and, on the up stroke, there was much less suction. So I screwed in a zerk fitting. My grease gun is fitted with a flexible hose, so I electrical taped the connection with the zerk to keep them together. About 1 and a half pumps I ran into a lot of pressure. Kept the pressure on, but started looking around the garage shop for a cheater bar...all of a sudden I felt it pop. Gave it two more pumps to be sure. It then fell out when I tapped the muzzle on a piece of soft wood.
Thanks to all who offered advice and assurance.
I'm off to Auto Zone to get a can of spray brake cleaner.
Best to all.
Jerry
I ran the endoscope down again this morning mostly because I wanted to take a picture of what I was seeing in the bore. I guess the CO2 dislodger had done some good. There was a little row of dots of light on the one side of the scraper and the scraper did not appear to be as "straight" in the bore. So I carefully ran a bore butter patch down and, on the up stroke, there was much less suction. So I screwed in a zerk fitting. My grease gun is fitted with a flexible hose, so I electrical taped the connection with the zerk to keep them together. About 1 and a half pumps I ran into a lot of pressure. Kept the pressure on, but started looking around the garage shop for a cheater bar...all of a sudden I felt it pop. Gave it two more pumps to be sure. It then fell out when I tapped the muzzle on a piece of soft wood.
Thanks to all who offered advice and assurance.
I'm off to Auto Zone to get a can of spray brake cleaner.
Best to all.
Jerry
