Sub-Gauge Percussion Shotgun

[BarberSurgeon]

I have recently had an interest in another muzzleloader. I think having a sub-gauge "woods" gun would be a lot of fun. Something that could take rabbit, tree rat, or the occasional quail over pointers. I've never built a gun before, and it looks like if I am to get what I'm thinking about, it will be a build project.

I'd like to have a percussion gun, but truth be told I'm not really interested in the few single barrel shotgun kits I've seen. I'd like this gun to have a bit more modern dimensions, but with classic lines. A 28" barrel in 16 or 20ga with a weight around 5.5-6lbs. I'd also like to have more modern stock dimensions. I really have a hard time hitting much with 3-4" of DAH. Although "modern shotgun stock dimensions" I can adapt to on most any gun, 14.25 lop, 2.5 dah, ~1.5" dac.

I'm not looking for a historically correct gun, so if this is not the place to discuss such things I'll look elsewhere for advice.

I've seen a few BP shotgun barrels listed, but they are much longer than I am looking to have on this gun. With a variable profile, I don't think they are designed to be shortened. Also they seem like they are quite heavy, making it hard to reach my weight goals.

I'm a 16ga fan, and like the idea of this being a 16ga. Easy to load down to 7/8 when needed. Should be fun working out light and standard loads.

I had thought about this type of gun when I first got my 50cal T/C. Kinda filed the idea away in the back of my mind, as a "someday I'll.." Then came across this youtube video that got me thinking again:

http://youtu.be/njFtOQOs2As

Sure looks like fun to me! Just in a resource gathering stage at this time. Any links, ideas, etc are appreciated.

 

[dave524]

I had one of those back in the 60's as a teen, mine had a 2 piece full stock and was really light like 4 pounds, beech stock and poorly finished interior of the barrel. I cut wads with a sharpened piece of pipe out of carpet underlay and used about a 1/2 oz of shot and powder. To be honest as a retired person and a lot wiser I probably wouldn't shoot it today unless it had a 20 foot string to the trigger. Best kill with it was a groundhog with some used fishing splitshots sinkers

 

[robinsroost]

I have a Pedrisoli SBS 20ga percussion. One like it might work for you. I don't know what the DOH is, but it is not excessive. LOP appears to be about 13 1/2", but I have not measured it. It weighs about 5 to 5.5 pounds, and feels good in the hand............Robin

 

[BarberSurgeon]

I like the looks of the Pendersoli, and that's the basic lines I was thinking about. I met a guy who was shooting one in 12ga, and it was not too bad weight wise, for a 12ga. I'd like lighter, and the economy of shooting a sub gauge is nice too. According to Pendersoli, the listed weight of the 20ga turned me off:
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...-by-side-shotgun-classic-standard-cal-20.html

5.5 lbs has my attention though!.

I'm sure having a second shot would prove useful from time to time. Guy with the double said he rarely fires the second barrel at game. By time the smoke clears, usually the game is out of range or in cover. (Also I work with my hands, so forgetting to de-prime the unfired barrel removes a source of injury with a single. I know safety first and I'm a pretty methodical guy, but it only takes one time..)

So if anyone knows of a single gun/kit on this type of stock/action setup in 16/20/28 please let me know! A nice even balanced gun to rise with an Autumn quail over a pointer. Crisp frost on the ground and black powder smoke in the air... I can smell it now!

 

[BarberSurgeon]

So the main issue with a gun like this is that Most BP barrels are just too heavy. Is there a source for un-chambered modern profile barrels like are used on the Pendersoli guns?

I have thought about buying a 16 or 20 ga barrel from a pump or single and having the back portion of the chamber cut off and then threaded for a breech plug. As long as the plug is far enough forward to get to the end of the forcing cone, you would have a straight wall barrel. Obviously the thickest part of any barrel is the chamber, and you would be loosing that to get a muzzle loading BP barrel.

Thoughts on strength on doing something like this? BP is a significantly lower pressure than a modern shot shell, so I'm sure it would depend on the particular donor barrel. Doubtful I could get a 28" barrel starting with a donor barrel. 25-26" looks doable.

Somebody tell me I'm crazy for even thinking like this... ????

 

[gunmaker43]

Something like this mite fill the bill: 26" modern steel bbl. maple full stock, 4.5 lb ready to go. Barrels available in 24 & 16 bore tapered round or 32, 28, 20 & 12 oct. to rd. Put any lock on it you want. The members here can walk you thru a build-no problem. Tom

click pic to see build

 

[frogwalking]

I am not sure what black powder barrels you are looking at that are too heavy. I have a fullstock 20 ga. flint fowler with a 46 inch barrel that weighs less than 7 lbs. Muzzle Loader Builders Supply has a 28 gauge barrel 32 inches long that weighs in at 2 lbs, 10 oz. This barrel is swamped, but you could cut it shorter and call it tapered. Solder on the front sight and it would work fine. TOW sells two bolster type percussion patent breechplugs that will fit this barrel. If you want it, go ahead and build it. There are a number of folks who will inlet the barrel and drill the ramrod hole for a reasonable cost, and the rest is not too hard.

 

[azmntman]

AWESOME web site of "the build". Are you still building? I will soon be thinking of getting a custom and REALLY like your work. I live in N AZ and we have Black Walnut trees. I may "snag" me a hunk! If your still building lemme know! The .32 squirrel drooool was priceless... a true master piece!

Enjoy the weekend!

Grover

 

[gunmaker43]

Yep, still at it, Where in Az. are you, can't be far from Las Vegas. Got kin in Tucson & Holbrook. Give me a shout at [email protected] we'll talk some...Tom

 

[Lorne Johnson]

As has been noted already, Pedersoli makes a 20 gauge SxS. I own one, and mine weighs 7.05 lbs. Older Pedersolis weigh less, I have a 12 gauge that weighs 5 lbs 14.5 ozs, I regularly load it down to 3/4 ounce for targets--it is my woods gun. The Pedersolis, apart from the screw-in choke version, are pretty nice handling guns. They are quite period correct for a mid-19th Century British game gun, apart from the spray on finish and not having laminated barrels. Dimensions are "modern" although slightly higher than you describe. You can bring them down with a little hand work, and even put in some cast by thinning out the comb.

 

[flintlockmdj]

Yesterday I ordered a .570 caliber 26" smooth bore barrel from Numrich Arms not chambered or choked.
$20.00 plus shipping about $28.00 total. If anyone is interested I will post more specs when I get it in hand.
They also have IIRC .680 or .690 barrels 26" same price.

 

[BarberSurgeon]

Please let us know the specs on these barrels. Interested to see if there is any choke.

 

[BarberSurgeon]

Very Nice looking Fowler you have built there, Mr Knight. Thanks for posting up the build pictures, for sure.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and leads.

 

[gunmaker43]

That little gun has one of those Numrich bbl. old stock LC Smith no chamber no choke 26" in .570 & .670 need to cut off the underlug that was intended for break open shotgun & thd. for standard plug.....Tom

 

[BarberSurgeon]

So these 'Elsie barrels are basically unfinished 12 and 20 gauge barrels, right? The bore measurements are such that with final bore prep you could end up with a full choke from what I can figure.

So you left the bore as the 'unfinished' .570 and .670, right? Any load issues with this, or are they close enough to 28ga and 16ga to use as they are?

Did you jug choke or make any muzzle end changes to influence pattern?

Thanks!

 

[gunmaker43]

I don't want a choke in a ML bbl. I've had really good luck with 50-60 gr. 3f, same #7 shot at 25 paces. Using punched fiber board-like the back of drawing pad bout 18" thick, 2 over powder, 1 over shot. That .570 throws a pattern that a dove can't get thru @ 20 paces. Really fun to carry & shoot...Tom

 

[BarberSurgeon]

Yesterday I ordered a .570 caliber 26" smooth bore barrel from Numrich Arms not chambered or choked.
$20.00 plus shipping about $28.00 total. If anyone is interested I will post more specs when I get it in hand.
They also have IIRC .680 or .690 barrels 26" same price.

Interested in specs when you receive your barrel and can measure/weigh it. Thanks!

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I'm curious, you said; “I can adapt to on most any gun, 14.25 lop, 2.5 dah, ~1.5" dac”, are these the dimensions you use for your field guns? They are quite close to my competition pigeon/bunker gun which is shot from the mounted position. Do you use any cast-off in your stocks?

 

[BarberSurgeon]

Those are the the dimension that almost every shotgun made after ~1950 comes with from the factory, within 1/4" or so. I have problems when the drop gets excessive. Many of the replica kits have quite a bit of drop, and that's why I mentioned it in the original post. in reality, my ideal LOP is probably closer to 14.75".

I only have a bit of cast off on one gun, and it is not much. I suspect I could benefit from a bit of cast off and toe out.

 

[kruzer1]

I'm interested in those Numrich barrels. Went to their website and can't seem to find them (but their website is a bit challenging to search). Can anyone else point me in the direction of those?