suggestions on ordering powder

[coloradoclyde]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...NAURKjui0NuBzcy9Banosg&bvm=bv.135974163,d.cWw
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rc...sYbi9KIW7gMQyCtl4WeL_Q&bvm=bv.135974163,d.cWw

I think the answer is on page 100.

Black Powder Transactions
Public Law 93-639 (1975) allows nonlicensees/nonpermittees to purchase commercially manufactured black powder, in quantities of 50 pounds or less, solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes for use in antique firearms or antique devices. A nonlicensee or nonpermittee purchasing black powder under the exemption need not be a resident of the State in which the dealer is located. Also, the categories of persons to whom the distribution of explosive materials is prohibited do not apply to black powder transactions made under the exemption. Acquisitions of black powder not qualifying under this exemption are subject to the same regulatory requirements that govern any other low explosive. All persons who distribute black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as explosives dealers and, among other things, must provide adequate storage.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I also found this interesting....

Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition, including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively. Such persons may possess ammunition for antique firearms such as percussion caps, minie balls, and 50 pounds or less of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes.
Antique firearms are still subject to whatever State laws and local ordinances may apply.

Doesn't apply to us "traditional" users but still may of interest to some......

 

[jackley]

Whitetail
Miles City is the closest place to get it right now. The pawn shop in Billings and Little Johns both quit selling it this spring. Bear Country will be at the Muzzle Loading Convention in Casper in Jan. if you can wait that long.

Jerry

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

This is precisely why I want to order in a large order so I can have a few pounds on hand.

 

[jfaldo]

Powder Inc. Order a case for yourself. You can mix the case also (2f, 3f, 4f or whatever). It never goes bad and your really young so you have a lot of time to use it or just shoot more. Case lot is the best "bang" for your buck.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Are you referencing some rule that limits you to 5 pounds in possession? From reading the ATF website I get that anything under 50 pounds is exempt as long as its for use in antique firearms for sporting use. I'm not sure if this statement exempts it from the storage requirement or not?

....


Thanks for the suggestions guys. Thanks for the tips on the legal portions as well. It will be between me a a couple of close friends so I don't think it should be a big deal. I've looked at powder Inc but I'll have to look at the other ones.

And 33,000 people on the Interweb now know. But my lips are sealed. ;-)

Storage is not the problem. Distribution without a license is. The legal definition of "distribution" is to sell, trade, give or supply to other individuals.

 

[gwalker]

I also get my black powder from Craig Kirkland (Bear River Powder) at the Wyoming State Muzzleloading Association Convention held in Casper each January. I call Craig in early January to give him my annual order that I might be sure he'll have enough on hand. Craig also advertises in MuzzleLoader - the publication for traditional black powder shooters. If you run short on powder, you can also purchase black powder by the pound from the Glenrock club (Deer Creek Muzzleloaders) at their monthly shoots (first Sunday of the month) held between Casper and Glenrock. Best to call them before attending their monthly shoot so that the club secretary can bring your order out to the shoot. The Sheridan club shoots on the last Sunday of each month at the Sheridan County Sportsmen Association gun range west of town.

 

[necchi]

Can you point me to the ATF documentation for this procedure, so the Forum can provide a link?

Darn it I can't find that quote,, I'll keep looking.
There is this from the June 2011 ATF news letter;

Black powder, a low explosive, has historically been, and continues to be, an integral component of commercial and amateur fireworks. However, there has been recent confusion over the exemption status of black powder when used for this purpose. The regulation at 27 CFR 555.141(b) states, “Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under Subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). Further, the regulation at 27 CFR 555.41(b)(1)(iv) states, “It is not necessary to obtain a permit if the user intends only to lawfully purchase commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices.” Therefore, the exemption allowing the purchase of commercially manufactured black powder applies only to black powder intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes in antique firearms or in antique devices.

http://www.acepyro.com/pdf/Letter_on_BP_regulation.pdf
https://www.atf.gov/file/56586/download

 

[ohio ramrod]

While I don't have written documentation our club's policy is that we can "distribute" powder to any one who was a member when the powder was ordered, but not to someone who joins the club until we place and receive the next order.This policy was put into effect when we had a lawyer in the club on his advice. So I assume the Federal laws haven't changed since. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's a club policy. Not a federal law.

I used to belong to a club that went down to the DuPont factory in PA to buy a bulk carton and would sell 3# coffee cans of powder to the members. Not no more.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Back in 2011 I stuck my neck out and contacted the AFT directly regarding group purchases of blackpowder (it comes up here biannually) and a Mr. Gary Kirchoff of the Department of Justice responded as follows:

Federal Law and Regulations, 27 CFR 555.141(b), exempts black powder purchases under 50 lbs if the black powder is used solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices. Persons who engage in the business of dealing in explosives materials, such as black powder, would be required to have a Federal explosives license. For example, if you acquired the black powder for redistribution, or if the black powder is acquired for a non-exempt purpose, then an Federal explosives license or permit is required.

 

[necchi]

Again,
Three friends meet in a garage to enjoy camaraderie and friendship. Each of them have in common and enjoy the recreational and sporting use of antique firearms.
All is right in the world, :grin:

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

So I guess depending on how you read it as long as you don't buy the powder with the sole intent of selling it your probably ok. Somebody else might read it that you can't transfer powder from one person to another in any way. I hate legal documents.

I think I'll just collect cash and mail it in that way I have in no way been paid by the other guys for the powder we are simply combining shipping.

 

[necchi]

So I guess depending on how you read it as long as you don't buy the powder with the sole intent of selling it your probably ok. Somebody else might read it that you can't transfer powder from one person to another in any way. I hate legal documents.

That's the dickens of it right?
I guess as a quasi-public forum we can't/shouldn't advise people how to interpret the "legaleaze" of it.
If the ATF&E wanted to prosecute,, there would be a lot of individuals, clubs and Rendezvous sponsors in jail.
There are a lot of LEO that participate in Rendezvous and I haven't seen one of them jump up to arrest anyone when the club hands a pound of powder to a feller for winning a match, (yet).

 

[Scota4570]

This a not an issue that have ever been on the radar of any LEO, as far as I know. I think this is obsessing over a non issue.

Most people who live an active life break some insiginificant laws most every day. Don't look too hard, you will find somehting.

I am sure the vendor could give some advice on this matter. Since it is done on a daily basis my intuition says it is OK to do group buys.

 

[fleener]

Local, or State LEO will not have jurisdiction over the BATF regulations.

I also do agree that at times people make too much of an issue out of things that dont need to be an issue.

Fleener

 

[fleener]

while I assume the original poster got his question answered on where to buy powder, the thread has taken a bit of detour.

I have no idea if it is legal or not legal to buy powder and split the order with a few buddies.

However lets assume that it is illegal. And if it is illegal I am certainly not hinting or even suggesting that you split an order. Let me offer my opinion on what might happen to you if your were caught. Again, this is only my opinion and I only buy powder by the 25 lb case for my own use and I do not split the purchase.

I have work with the ATF on occasion over the past 30 years. ATF have civil investigators and criminal special agents.

The civil investigators do not have the authority to issue fines. If they find an issue with firearms or explosives issues, at the worst they can do is pull your licence.

If your violation warrants a criminal investigation, that is when their special agents get involved. If you can get a US Attorneys (USA) office to agree to the investigation, one could find themselves facing a felony and jail time.

How sexy of a crime do you think it is for a special agent of ATF to get the USA to prosecute 3 buddies that bought powder together and simple used the powder for their own sporting purposes? Not much appeal IMO.

When teaching classes to special agents and we start talking about certain types of violations I have been know to state "If that is all you have to worry about, you are not working hard enough"



Fleener

 

[bpd303]

:thumbsup: