Swamped or Straight #2

[Number19]

Mtdew asked about an early Lancaster Dirkert and the consensus was Swamped.

I'm not into re-enactment, but rather competition. Today I found that my choice of barrel - Rice - offers a Match Grade barrel in Straight, with square cut grooves.

I had previously been considering a 42" "B" weight Swamp, in .45 caliber, which has the round bottom rifling.

Now I'm considering the 42" in a Match Grade 7/8" Straight.

Which should I go with? Thanks.

 

[rabjr]

early Lancaster

Swamped..

 

[jethro224]

:hmm: A guy named Swampy might be prejudiced leaning toward anything swamped. :haha:

What kind of competition shooting do you plan to do? What style is your gun?

 

[Number19]

I'm too new at this. I currently shoot .22LR Schuetzen with a CZ Ultra Lux. Our shooting club holds monthly blackpowder matches where they shoot ringed targets at 25, 50 and 100 yds and they also shoot silhouette at these distances. As long as its blackpowder longrifles, with no scopes, its open competition. On certain dates they hold sanctioned matches. I don't know the rules for these just yet.

The rifle I'm having built is not a particular period piece. The gun will be built around a Virginia Stock by Matt and Toni (TVM).

 

[caddo]

Swamped

 

[rich pierce]

Mtdew asked about an early Lancaster Dirkert and the consensus was Swamped.

I'm not into re-enactment, but rather competition. Today I found that my choice of barrel - Rice - offers a Match Grade barrel in Straight, with square cut grooves.

I had previously been considering a 42" "B" weight Swamp, in .45 caliber, which has the round bottom rifling.

Now I'm considering the 42" in a Match Grade 7/8" Straight.

Which should I go with? Thanks.

What kind of competition? Offhand? Cross-sticks? Over the log? All-rounder? If it's not imporant to you that the rifle represent something historical, but just be an accurate flintlock, you can choose based on weight and balance and the length you prefer for the intended form of competition, and swamped versus straight does not need to make a difference. You could build it with a shotgun styled stock made of laminate; whatever. I would not let historical accuracy influence your choices if your main interest is accurate competitive shooting. If you're still interested in a traditional look w/o worrying too much about historical details, you could still use a straight barrel. But you're also not limited to a fullstock rifle- could build a British styled flintlock rifle in halfstock configuration. Keep in mind that for target shooting, smaller locks usually have the fastest locktimes.

 

[hanshi]

After enjoying the best of both worlds I'm of the opinion that unless HC/PC, competition, or some other exigency is involved, a swamped barrel is the only way to go. For hunting, carrying and general use they are tops.

 

[rich pierce]

+1; have not built a rifle with a straight barrel for decades. But they have their appropriate places and uses, as you noted.

 

[Number19]

I've reached a point where I don't know what I'm going to end up with. I've just ordered about a half dozen books to study up on the various styles, but I've got a mental picture that I can best describe as a traditional style American Longrifle, but of no particular school. It'll probably end up as most resembling something from the 1810-1820 era.

I'll be shooting offhand maybe 70% of the time and some form of supported hold, both over-the-log and sticks, 25% of the time. I'll hunt with the gun on occasion.

I guess this is as good a time to ask as any: the R.E.Davis double set triggers #004 & #006 fit what time frame?

I've decided on the very fast Durs Egg lock matched up to Chamber's "White Lightnin" Touch Hole Liner for the ignition system.

 

[rafterob]

The Davis Triggers would fit your time frame no problem. 42" barrel, you will like the swamped. If you were considering shorter like 36ish I would say the straight. By 1820, at least the large populated East coast areas, straight manufactured barrels were becoming common. No matter which Rice barrel you choose, you will have an excellent competition barrel. If you are not building a HC/PC rifle, then you build what suits you and it sounds like you are on the right track so far.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Books aren't, in my hunble opinion, going to help you make a choice. I have shot and hunted with straight and swamped barrels, now swamped is all I will build. Perfect balance, and when you swing on a target, it moves so nice.

 

[Number19]

No. What I need, in a condensed format (I can spend too much time tracking down links on the net)photos and explanations of the various styles and time periods. A good book can't be beat.

 

[lonehunter]

Straight :shocked2:
Yea, I said it!
Its heavy, but they sure do hold nice.

Plus you dont have to worry about anybody stealing it, Its too heavy to run with. :wink:

 

[Zonie]

I didn't see any description of your build so I don't know if your weak, strong or just average strength.

This is important because if your shooting offhand the barrel weight is going to be an issue.

According to my information a 7/8 inch X 42" straight octagon X .45 caliber barrel is going to weigh in at 5.71 pounds. (The weight of the lock/stock etc is extra.)

Given a length of pull of 14" that would put the center of the guns weight about 2 1/2-3 feet in front of your shoulder.
Most folks would say this would be quite muzzle heavy.

Using the normal 13/16" X 42" straight octagon .45 barrel will lower the barrel weight to 4.49 pounds for a 1.22 pound reduction.
I've built several guns using this barrel and although it does have some "muzzle weight" it is quite manageable for offhand shooting. It is far from being "whippy".

I mention all of this because I once built a rifle with a 42" 1" octagon X .54 caliber barrel giving the barrel a weight of 7.2 pounds and it seems to be VERY muzzle heavy.

While heavy barrels and guns that tend to be muzzle heavy are good for target shooting that "good" can wear off pretty quickly when a lot of shots are being shot offhand.

As for the swamped barrels, I would call very few of them muzzle heavy. In fact, I've seen several people say they were too muzzle light for target shooting offhand. Others disagree and say they are about right.
As for who is right? No one can say because as I indicated when I started this post, it depends on your physical build and strength.

If it were me and Period Correctness was not an issue I think I would opt for the 13/16" X 42" straight octagon barrel in .45 caliber.
Then again, I'm a skinny guy who is not into weight lifting. :grin:

Just something to think about.

 

[hoochiepapa]

No. What I need, in a condensed format (I can spend too much time tracking down links on the net)photos and explanations of the various styles and time periods. A good book can't be beat.

But a lot of the originals say they are swamped barrels, the swamping is so slight you can't see it. You have to lay a straight edge on to see the curve.

 

[rabjr]

I hope hes not getting hung up on "Match Grade". Because both those barrels will shoot more accurately than most people can hold them.

 

[Homesteader]

I'm a long time bodybuilder / weightlifter, so I can hold a long straight barrel just fine. And I'll never own another one (unless I get into pure bench shooting, that is). My .45 sports a 44" swamped & tapered barrel, and I just plain love it. Shoot off a rest, tote it in the woods, shoot it off-hand (I still prefer a rest of some sort), and it'll do all of the above better than I can hold it.

So my vote's for swamped (and tapered, if you can get it).

 

[jethro224]

I'll be shooting offhand maybe 70% of the time and some form of supported hold, both over-the-log and sticks, 25% of the time. I'll hunt with the gun on occasion.

Swamped. :thumbsup:

Ideally, try and get a feel of each for yourself. If any of the guys at the range shoot a gun similar to what you are after I bet they'd be more than happy to let you try it. Just ask 'em.

 

[leslie]

I faced the same problem when ordering a new rifle a month ago,like you I am not into PC or HC.The builder reminded me that one day the rifle would have to be disposed of either by inheritance or sale so some semblence of PC or HC must maintained to make it worthwhile.He was right, passing a rifle to an heir that doesn't look like anything except that its a good shooter isn't much of an inheritance,you can buy all kinds of good shooters that are a whole lot cheaper than a custom rifle. In the end I left it up to him as to style after we decided on the important[to me]stuff like barrel,lock,triggers,drop,sights and length of pull.I am now in the anxiously waiting mode.

 

[Number19]

Yes, I'm a 6' skinny guy also. But as I study up on this, things evolve. By switching from a Durs Egg lock to a Jacob Dickert lock, I can get back into period, and still have a fast lock. I had considered the resale value and this helped influence my decisions. I also corresponded with Rice and there are advantages to the Match Grade barrels, but I decided not for me.

The 1" x 42" swamped .45 weighs in at 5.1 lbs, a nice compromise, for my "first" rifle.

Now, does anyone have any negative experience with the L&R locks, or more specifically, the Jacob Dickert lock.

The reason I ask is that on another forum I found this remark:

"...there are ALLOT better locks avail that I feel will work on that rifle that will be more Consistent & more Reliable than what you have chosen. Now there are some that feel totally rebuilding a lock is part of the build, and that is OK. I see it differently, I feel when you buy a Built lock it should perform & work reliably..."

I did a search on that forum and found no negative reviews and posted a comment seeking clarification. But I thought I ask here, also.