Swiss Black Powder

[Ron_T.]

Newbie here.

Gonna try some Swiss brand black powder (FFFg) in my .50 caliber Traditions Shenandoah flintlock, but have no loading data for it.

I've heard it is a bit "hotter" than Goex, and so, apparently, the loading data is NOT inter-changable.

I'd like to hear from you fellas & gals who are currently shooting Swiss brand black powder as to what you've found works-for-you for "accuracy" (target) loads and "hunting" loads.

I've shot as much as 90 grains & as little as 35 grains of Goex searching for the most accurate paper-punching and hunting loads and am well-aware of the "match-your-caliber" suggestion, but I have found a good many flinters tend to shoot lighter than "match-your-caliber" loads to "kill" paper with Goex.

However, I have been told and read in variouis forums that Swiss Black Powder shoots "cleaner" and apparently builds more pressure than an equal amount of Goex. I also found it costs considerably more (Swiss was $22 vs. $14 a pound for Goex at Friendship in June).

I currently have a pound of FFFg Swiss, but can get FFg from our local Club President if I find FFg is the preferred powder for .50 caliber. However, 99% of my use is going to be shooting at paper targets and while I hope to "hunt" the Shenandoah this fall, nothing is current set up.

Ok, that's about all the information that has a bearing on my use of the Shenandoah... please give me your experiences with Swiss Black Powder and why you prefer (or don't prefer) it over Goex.

Thanx for your input... :wink:

Ron T.

 

[shortstring]

In my case I use Swiss for competition. What little hunting I do doesn't mean much. I'm guessing that volume measure with Swiss compared to Goex would get you around a 10% jump in velocity. Some one will probably have a more precise number on this. I don't think that I'm alone when I say that Swiss will out shoot other powders as far as accuracy goes. At least we've found this to be true shooting chunk matches.

Paul

 

[Birddog6]

Personally I don't use it on anything over a 40 cal. I don't like the fast chamber pressure it makes. Others will disagree & shoot it in anything. Also the screen mesh used in sifting Swiss is of dif. dimensions than what is used to sift Goex or Scheutzen. Thus the grain sizes are not equal...

That being said, were I to use it on a .50 cal it would be 1.5F. And I would use about 15% less in volume for the charge.

On the smallbores, it is the cats meow in powder. Clean, fast, & accurate.

Years ago when I bought mine, it was $10.15 a can & it was very reasonable to shoot in a .40 cal or less, as a can lasted a LONG time shooting 20-30 grains per shot.

:thumbsup:

Note: I have a friend that was shooting some Swiss in a .50 cal. He was burning up the patches & the patches & lube were fine. This was only happening with the Swiss powder. But the Swiss burns so much hotter & faster it was cooking them. He put in a over powder wad or patch & it cured that issue.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The difference between Swiss powders and Goex is due largely to using Metric measurements in determining proportions of Potassium Nitrate to the Sulfur, and charcoal contents of the powder. Additionally, the Screens used to size the powder granules makes a smaller granule size compared to that used here in the USA. Its not much, but enough to increase velocity up to 10% or so. It really depends on the caliber of the gun, and the load, and length of barrel.

As to burning cleaner, Some testing my brother did with Goex vs. Swiss indicates that if the Goex is Screened to remove both clinkers, and fines, the " Cleaner" issue largely disappears. Also if you use OP wads AFTER screening GOEX, The difference in velocities between the two powders narrows so much that it becomes very hard to justify the Increased Cost of the Swiss powder.

Without knowing a lot of details of your .50 caliber rifle, it is anybodies guess as to how much Swiss powder you need to use for target shooting for best accuracy. This is something you have to find your self.

It helps if you have a chronograph to use for this purpose. If you already know the " Sweet Spot" using Goex Powder, for the gun, use the chronograph to determine what the average velocity is for that load. Then start with a powder charge at that same velocity with Swiss powder, and work up and down from there to find your best load using the Swiss powder.

The latest powder coming out of the New Goex plant in Louisiana seems to be screened better, and has fewer clinkers and fines than in the powder used in my brother's testing. It might be worth while to run those tests again without screening some of the new powder to see how close the two powders are now. Again, increasing the chamber pressure and temperature by using OP wads with a PRB helps the complete burning of the powder, and lowered the SDV for both GOEX and SWISS powders.

The improvement in velocity for the GOEX powder brought it up much closer to the velocity generated by the SWISS powder- under 100 fps difference. This was using a .40 caliber rifle for the testing. I suspect that with larger( .58 cal. up) caliber balls, the mass of the heavier PRBs will help shrink the differences in velocity between the two powders, and help the Goex powder burn cleaner, without the OP wads.

 

[reddog]

I have found that 2f swiss seems to work well in .50-.54 cal. There does seem to be a faster pressure curve when comparing swiss to goex. It seems like 2f swiss is like 3f goex, possibly, like paul said, because of slightly different screening, plus the formula is a little different. As far as cleaner, I didn't notice that much difference. I use 2f swiss in my roundball rifles, 1.5f swiss in my fast twist "bullet rifle", and 3f swiss in the pistols and revolvers. You can use that 3f swiss in your .50 just fine, somewhere between 50-70 gr. will most likely work ok,.490-.495 rb, pillow tick, wet lube like hoppe's 9+ or similar or other "moose juice". I have never needed an over powder wad but it can't hurt. swiss is the premium powder availiable, wheather it worth the cost to you is for you to determine for yourself.

 

[Ron_T.]

Paul...

I've been lurking in the muzzle loading (flinter) forum for a month or three and have read your posts which reflect your knowledge & expertise.

Therefore, I value your opinions & thoughts in all matters concerning black powder rifles, etc., etc.

To bring you "up-to-speed" on my "situation", the Traditions Shenandoah flinter has a 33½ inch barrel & is patterned after Tradition's Pennsylvania Long Rifle except that it has a somewhat shorter (33½" vs. 40") barrel with a 1:66 twist.

Thus, following the smokeless powder "rule", a faster burning powder would probably prove more suitable and appropriate due to the rifle's shorter barrel and the powder's faster burning rate.

I do have a chronograph and close to 50 years of handloading experience with center-fire rifles, pistols and shotguns. A considerable amount of my center-fire experience can be and is being transferred to my "adventure" in my muzzle-loading black powder Shenandoah rifle.

So far, I've shot about half a pound of Goex FFFg and still have a full pound of Goex FFg and Swiss FFFg plus (of course) almost a full pound of FFFFg Goex "priming" powder left as well.

I've found that the Goex tends to be very "dirty"... haven't shot any Swiss yet, but have been told by those who shoot it that it is "MUCH CLEANER" shooting which makes cleaning the rifle after shooting much faster & easier. This aspect of the Swiss black powder appeals to me.

I've also been told the Swiss adds velocity over an equal amount of the Goex. However, from my experience with smokeless powders, I realize that you can't get "something for nothing", so I assumed (apparently correctly) that the Swiss powder increases the Shenandoah rifle's "chamber pressure" (given equal amounts of both Goex and Swiss used as the main powder charge) in order to extract that "extra muzzle velocity".

Since I haven't yet chronographed any loads outta my Shenandoah, I have no velocities to compare, i.e., Goex vs. Swiss.

My thinking in trying the Swiss is that if clean up is easier and faster, I can use less of the Swiss to attain the same velocities for both target shooting and hunting (deer only). Thus, the Swiss would not only be desirable from the standpoint of cleaning, but also from the standpoint of using less powder to attain the same muzzle velocity and also possibly getting better accuracy as a "bonus".

In Tradition's Instruction Manual which came with the rifle, under "RECOMMENDED LOADS", both FFg and FFFg powders are given as acceptable powders for both "Most Accurate" and "Maximum" charges, but Traditions makes no comment on WHICH brand of "black powder" they're giving these loads.

The "Accuracy" load given for "round ball loads" using FFg powder is "50-75 grains".

The "Accuracy" load given for FFFg is "45-70 grains".

The "Maximum" load given for FFg is "110 grains".

The "Maximum" load given for FFFg is "105 grains".

I've fired a 90 grain FFFg Goex load just to get the "feel" of it... it's a fairly stout load with recoil about like a .270 or 150 grain bullet in a .30/06.

Should I assume these loads are for Goex and, therefore, reduce these loads 10%-15% for Swiss? Of course, I realize that when I chronograph these loads, I will have a better idea of what I'm facing, but your opinion would be valued.

I should add that my primary goal is ACCURACY with both target loads and hunting loads, but I also look at muzzle velocity in my hunting loads. However, with round ball loads and the lack of efficiency in the round ball's ballistic coeffient (only .068), muzzle velcity tends to lose it's "edge" fairly quickly. Therefore, even in hunting loads, ACCURACY is "king" with muzzle velocity being downgraded of 2nd. place.

Using the old "1,000 ft/lbs of bullet energy to cleanly kill a deer" axiom (assuming good shot placement), the .50 caliber black powder rifle shooting a 175-177 grain patched ball is a 50 yard deer rifle with 100 yards being the maximum range one should attempt to take deer with a rifle like mine.

I tend to wanna stay with FFFg powder due to it's faster burning rate (as determined by the granular size) since the Shenandoah has a somewhat shorter barrel than the "standard" Pennsylvania Long Rifle. Therefore, a faster burning powder (FFFg vs. FFg) will be more likely to be all burnt up before the ball exists the barrel's muzzle as compared to FFg.

All of the above are "assumptions" on my part since I have such little experience in black powder rifles in general... and specifically with Goex vs. Swiss Black Powder.

"Dutch" Schoultz speaks highly of you in his email correspondence... therefore, your thoughts on the above will be greatly appreciated & heavily considered. :bow: :wink: :v


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[Ron_T.]

Reddog...

Thank you for your post.

Currently, I'm using .015" denim which seems to be working well together with a .490 lead ball.

I'm trying both expertly molded (not by me) .490" and Hornady swaged rifle balls to determine which ball (if any) is most accurate.

However, I haven't actually found "the sweet spot" for sure with my powder nor have I found which brand of powder or which granulation of powder works the best and is the most accurate.

I.E., I'm making progress, but doing so SLOWLY! :hmm:

Again, thanx for your input...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[Dphar]

There are two primary differences in Swiss and Goex.
Swiss uses a superior charcoal not available in the US. It is milled longer and it is pressed harder. Until recently the saltpeter was better as well.
It has nothing the do with metric measurements. The powder is made of certain PERCENTAGES of the components so metric weights are irrelevant.
I do believe that Swiss uses 76% saltpeter as did many of the old premium powder of the 19th century. This makes for a faster, cleaner powder. However, the heavier compression makes a denser powder and slows the burn rate somewhat. The better charcoal burns better, reduces and makes for softer fouling.
Swiss also has no graphite which increases fouling.
Swiss produces better velocity for a given charge weight, less fouling and more consistent shot to shot velocity.
For target work 1.5F often produces very good accuracy with RB guns.
I use FFFG in my 40-50-54 rifls and FF in my .67 caliber rifles with good results. I use FFG in the 40 when using picket bullets and may try 1.5f.

Dan

 

[robinghewitt]

However, the heavier compression makes a denser powder and slows the burn rate somewhat.

Interesting, that ticks another box :thumbsup:

I understand the Swiss is pressed between steel rollers rather than the old fashioned copper plates which were somewhat lethal.

I also understood that pressing caused the saltpeter to flow around the other components, thereby creating a more intimate mix.

However, if the powder becomes denser when pressed that can only mean that there is an air content to be displaced.

best regards

Squire Robin

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: Charcoal is mainly carbon. Selecting ONLY one hardwood, such as eastern European Alder( Poplar here) probably limits the amount of crud that gets mixed into the charcoal, but I suspect that the extra milling screens out a lot of the NON-carbon debris found in charcoal.

Carbon is Carbon. In the case of black Powder, its a base to hold the Potassium Nitrate, and Sulfur compounds IN, like a sponge holding water. I have a lot of trouble believing that chemically there is much if any difference in the Carbon used in Swiss Powder, and the Carbon used in Wano, or other European powders.

I do believe, however, that GOEX powders used to be much dirtier in use. However, the new powder plant in Louisiana is turning out better powder than was being made up at the Pennsylvania plant. I believe the change has been motivated by the Interest by Goex to serve the BPCS shooting market, that was a huge, growing sport in the 1980s, and 1990s.

Since BP burns from the outside inward, I believe the Roundness of the Granules, and the uniformity in size contribute to the " Clean " issue, much more than any difference in source of carbon.

I do believe that the primary reason that Swiss powders create faster velocities for the same volume load of powder relates to the slightly higher content of Potassium Nitrate, as that is the chemical that produces the gas that pushes the ball out the barrel. Sulfur is added to actually control the rate of the burning, by showing it down. The percentage of sulfur determines how MUCH velocity you can get.

Here is some information I have gleaned over the years that might shed some light on the manufacuring process that creates the grades of BLack Powder we used.

From Hodgdon's Data Manual:

BLACK POWDER GRANULATION

MUST PAS THRU MUST NOT PAS THRU SCREEN

FG 10 MESH PER INCH / 14 MESH PER INCH
FFG 16 MESH " " / 24 mesh " "
FFFG 24 MESH " " / 46 mesh " "
FFFFG 46 MESH " " / 60 MESH " "

This information comes from American standards ( Ie. Goex powder, then DuPont powder)

When I went looking for screen wire to use to screen powder myself- several members recommended the website- McMaster-Carr, Inc. ( mcmaster-carr.com)-- I spent time on that site looking for screen wire to screen both 2Fg and 3Fg powder. I could find 24 mesh screening at the sight, but I could not find 46 mesh to screen the FFFg powder. They only had 40 mesh screen. And, if you want to screen 4Fg powder, McMaster only has 50 mesh screen wire- not 60 mesh!

Just for Yucks, I divided 6 by 46 to determine the percentage difference between a 40 mesh and a 46 mesh screen, and the percentage came out to 13+% If the European company is using a proper 46 mesh screen to make Swiss powder, that difference alone would explain the difference in velocity achieved with the same volume measure.

I don't have the microscopes needed to accurately measure the actual powder granules for both Goex and Swiss powder. Perhaps someone who does will take a look and see what if any difference does exist.

My brother has the Graf & sons powder screen drum, and the screen they provide. Since we first screened powder here, Goex has come out with additional powders, such as Cartridge grade, and Express grade. The claim by the company is that these powders are tumbled more to make them more round, and flow through powder measures easier, and to compact in casings easier. I don't know. I have not found a reason to buy either of them, yet.

It would be nice if one of our more expert powder people would cut through the hype out there on powders. With the limited screening that Peter and I were able to do, and then run shots out of the same rifle over his chronograph, the before and after testing of both Goex and Swiss powder indicated that screening decreases the SDV while increasing the velocity a bit for both. Goex increased the most, by comparison, leading me to believe that much of the " fines " we removed by screening the 3Fg powder by Goex was actually graphite, and not a burning component, like Potassium nitrate, sulfur or carbon.

Regardless of the chemical difference in the powders, no one can deny the the cost for Swiss Powder is substantially higher than the cost of Goex. AND, there are other imported powders, like Wano, Schuetzen, and Graf's one label that produce similar velocities as GOEX, while costing less money to buy.

If you want to get the same velocity that you now get with a load of Swiss powder, just add a few more grains of Goex, or one of these other powders to the volume load. The cost of the extra powder used is not going to exceed the cost of a can of Swiss powder. If the powder is screened, you get the similar low SDV so essential to target shooting accuracy.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ron: DO NOT use the old bromide, 1,000 ft lbs. of energy at 100 yds. to measure the effectiveness of any Black Powder RB caliber on game. These are truly apples and oranges, and cannot be compared. The Bromide applies to Conical bullet loads, behind smokeless powder. NOT to RBs pushed by black powder.

The pure lead ball expands at extremely slow velocities, producing a primary wound channel that is often 1.5 times the diameter of the original ball. This expansion also shocks the internal organs and tissues around the primary wound channel, but not in the same way that high speed bullets create a secondary wound channel that mushes up tissues.

Many .30 caliber deer cartridges never expand to .50 caliber on their best day! You are starting out with a half inch hole in the deer. Don't ever forget that fact. I have seen .50 caliber round ball removed from under the hide on an off-shoulder, after blowing through both lungs, and major arteries, that were the size of a quarter, and had made that huge size hole through both lungs. Even secondary wound channels don't always reach that size with modern guns.

So, Forget that formula when determining the effectiveness of a RB load on game. Your .50 caliber gun will kill deer quite nicely at 100 yds, and beyond provided you place the ball accurately.

We have a Muzzleloading Hunting topic here on the forum, where you can read reports of hundreds of members on how their RB loads effectively killed deer, often with pictures of their deer shown. Its worth your while to go back through a year or so of postings there to understand how effective a RB really is.

Yes, you can assume that the loads listed are for Goex powder, and not the hotter swiss powder.

Since your barrel is ONLY 33.5 inches. long, your barrel will efficiently burn only about 75 grains of powder in it. The larger amounts are intended for the longer barrel model you mention. 75 grains is quite adequate to kill deer out past 100 yds. So, don't feel you are handicapped.

Only your gun can tell you which powder it likes better- FFg or FFFg. Do your own testing. It usually takes several months to work up a load. If you use a chronograph, the time can be cut down considerably. But, remember, you have to test powder charges, ball diameters, ball weights, patch thicknesses, and different lubes on those patches to determine what combination will give you the best accuracy. Read the patches after each shot. It will also save you time, as if any patch comes out torn, or with holes in it around the ring that represents the contact point with the round ball, the patch is either too thin, or your lube is inadequate, or both.

In my .50, which has a 39 inch Green Mountain Barrel with a 1:48 ROT, I have found that using an OP wad between my PRB and the powder charge gives more velocity,( indicating the wad seals the gases behind the PRB better than does just the Patch), and a lower SDV. POI is a bit higher, on the target, compared to shooting the same powder charge, and PRB without the OP wad. I may be able to reduce the volume of powder used( FFg) to bring the POI back down to my POA, while keeping the better SDV with the lighter charge of powder. That appeals to the " frugal " side of my family tree.

My gun shot FFFg powder more consistently when it was initially a percussion rifle. However, when I switch to a flintlock, I found that it shot better using FFg powder.

You can bet I tested that issue multiple times before finally buying a quantity of FFg to shoot in the gun. And, I discussed what I thought were absurd results with my friends and experts. I even had my friend, Don, load my gun without telling me which powder he used, while I shot groups, so I would not be influenced by my own prejudice towards one powder or the other. The groups were fired off a rest at 50 yds.

Keep us posted on your testing. Paul

 

[Blizzard of '93]

some years back I 'splurged' when ordering BP and included a can of Swiss to use in my .50. pricey but yes it does seem a little 'hotter' than GOEX and cleaner. it's a luxury I can't afford but if competeing I suppose it's worth it for the good stuff.
I wish DuPont still made BP IMO it was on par with Swiss. cheap too.

 

[hanshi]

Just some thoughts, here. Now, I've never used Swiss due to the cost and the fact that I've been completely satisfied with Goex. Let's face it, though; any talk about a "clean" black powder is oxymoronic at best. Kinda like "which is dirtier, red mud or black mud"? Some may leave a little more or less fouling behind under certain circumstances but they're all dirty.

I wouldn't think any reasonable modern made flint or cap gun is going to let go regardless of powder brand used anywhere within the recommended charge range. Blown patches and/or poor accuracy can result but not failure.

When speaking of prb rifles, throw foot pounds out the window; they mean nothing. The killing power of the prb is all out of proportion to the energy delivered on the target. This is why modest powder charges are so lethal in the hunting field against big game. The power doesn't go up with velocity; it goes up with bore size. You really can't compare prb rifles with modern cartridge rifles; they work differently on game.

I'm just thinking out loud so nobody has to agree.

 

[Dphar]

Dan: Charcoal is mainly carbon. Selecting ONLY one hardwood, such as eastern European Alder( Poplar here) probably limits the amount of crud that gets mixed into the charcoal, but I suspect that the extra milling screens out a lot of the NON-carbon debris found in charcoal.

Carbon is Carbon. In the case of black Powder, its a base to hold the Potassium Nitrate, and Sulfur compounds IN, like a sponge holding water. I have a lot of trouble believing that chemically there is much if any difference in the Carbon used in Swiss Powder, and the Carbon used in Wano, or other European powders.

I do believe, however, that GOEX powders used to be much dirtier in use. However, the new powder plant in Louisiana is turning out better powder than was being made up at the Pennsylvania plant. I believe the change has been motivated by the Interest by Goex to serve the BPCS shooting market, that was a huge, growing sport in the 1980s, and 1990s.

Since BP burns from the outside inward, I believe the Roundness of the Granules, and the uniformity in size contribute to the " Clean " issue, much more than any difference in source of carbon.

I do believe that the primary reason that Swiss powders create faster velocities for the same volume load of powder relates to the slightly higher content of Potassium Nitrate, as that is the chemical that produces the gas that pushes the ball out the barrel. Sulfur is added to actually control the rate of the burning, by showing it down. The percentage of sulfur determines how MUCH velocity you can get.

Here is some information I have gleaned over the years that might shed some light on the manufacuring process that creates the grades of BLack Powder we used.

From Hodgdon's Data Manual:

BLACK POWDER GRANULATION

MUST PAS THRU MUST NOT PAS THRU SCREEN

FG 10 MESH PER INCH / 14 MESH PER INCH
FFG 16 MESH " " / 24 mesh " "
FFFG 24 MESH " " / 46 mesh " "
FFFFG 46 MESH " " / 60 MESH " "

This information comes from American standards ( Ie. Goex powder, then DuPont powder)

When I went looking for screen wire to use to screen powder myself- several members recommended the website- McMaster-Carr, Inc. ( mcmaster-carr.com)-- I spent time on that site looking for screen wire to screen both 2Fg and 3Fg powder. I could find 24 mesh screening at the sight, but I could not find 46 mesh to screen the FFFg powder. They only had 40 mesh screen. And, if you want to screen 4Fg powder, McMaster only has 50 mesh screen wire- not 60 mesh!

Just for Yucks, I divided 6 by 46 to determine the percentage difference between a 40 mesh and a 46 mesh screen, and the percentage came out to 13+% If the European company is using a proper 46 mesh screen to make Swiss powder, that difference alone would explain the difference in velocity achieved with the same volume measure.

I don't have the microscopes needed to accurately measure the actual powder granules for both Goex and Swiss powder. Perhaps someone who does will take a look and see what if any difference does exist.

My brother has the Graf & sons powder screen drum, and the screen they provide. Since we first screened powder here, Goex has come out with additional powders, such as Cartridge grade, and Express grade. The claim by the company is that these powders are tumbled more to make them more round, and flow through powder measures easier, and to compact in casings easier. I don't know. I have not found a reason to buy either of them, yet.

It would be nice if one of our more expert powder people would cut through the hype out there on powders. With the limited screening that Peter and I were able to do, and then run shots out of the same rifle over his chronograph, the before and after testing of both Goex and Swiss powder indicated that screening decreases the SDV while increasing the velocity a bit for both. Goex increased the most, by comparison, leading me to believe that much of the " fines " we removed by screening the 3Fg powder by Goex was actually graphite, and not a burning component, like Potassium nitrate, sulfur or carbon.

Regardless of the chemical difference in the powders, no one can deny the the cost for Swiss Powder is substantially higher than the cost of Goex. AND, there are other imported powders, like Wano, Schuetzen, and Graf's one label that produce similar velocities as GOEX, while costing less money to buy.

If you want to get the same velocity that you now get with a load of Swiss powder, just add a few more grains of Goex, or one of these other powders to the volume load. The cost of the extra powder used is not going to exceed the cost of a can of Swiss powder. If the powder is screened, you get the similar low SDV so essential to target shooting accuracy.

Honestly Paul you really should do research into making BP, particularly into the making of the charcoal, so we can have an informed discussion.

Carbon is not carbon. Too much carbon, or too little carbon hurts the powder. The charcoal needs to be made of a certain wood, usually cut at a certain time of the year to assure the proper sap content. It is then charred to produce the desired carbon and creosote levels. Creosote levels are what create the "moist fouling" seen mentioned in 19th century writings. Sounds like BS until the chemistry is done.
Swiss and Schuetzen use a charcoal that is near ideal for BP. It is not available from any supplier in the US. Goex at last report uses maple, the best they can get here.
I suggest you view this if you feel Swiss in just screened better. http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php

Then read this.
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/charcoal.html
It misses several key points but is essentially right about the charcoal, he just does not understand the importance of creosote or why the softer woods work better. Nor does he understand that charring the wood with the bark is not correct for making BP it adds undesirable .
He also seems to see velocity as the prime criteria. It is not. Its important, but Swiss will duplicate the late 19th century premium powder's performance. These powders were the result of centuries of dedicated research. There was little more to be done with BP by the 1890s. Dupont then destroyed the power making industry in the US buy buying up ALL the powder makers by the end of the 19th Century. When then forced to divest and the three powder makers were set up as seperate companies Dupont was the only BP maker and they had never really made a premium powder and apparently had no interest. So we got military grade powder. The alternative then as now was powder from England or Europe.
Swiss is more consistent lot to lot.
Look to the BPCR.net site and check the competitors equipment list for powders used....
Its better polished, its graphite free, its denser and its consistent from lot to lot.
Its the winning powder in BP shooting.
You can't screen Goex and change this.
This will have to do.
Dan

 

[Dave K]

Gosh, can these long replies be put on a tape or on UTube or what ever it is called. My eyes crossed and I fell asleep while trying to learn something. I have used ALLOT of Swiss in my 50cal. It is hotter, cleaner, powder. I am shooting 2F Swiss in my 50 and I think a larger grain would be better as it is not as hot. I have to use a over powder wad to keep my patches from burning. But, it is cleaner and the need for cleaning a fouled up bore is almost not needed. But I agree with Birddog 6. There is NO better powder than 3F Swiss, when it comes to shooting it in a small bore. I have no idea what is considered allot of powder, but I have burned about 12 lbs. of 2F Swiss in my 50's. I will though be switching to 2F Schuetzen or Goex for the bores over 40. Only because of the hotter burning in the 50's. It is very nice clean shooting powder. I know nothing of screening powder. I leave that to the powder co.s. I just love to shoot and hunt. Let them do the engineering of their product.

 

[necchi]

Gosh, can these long replies be put on a tape or on UTube or what ever it is called. My eyes crossed and I fell asleep while trying to learn something. I have used ALLOT of Swiss in my 50cal. It is hotter, cleaner, powder. I am shooting 2F Swiss in my 50

Gadd's! Thank You Dave :bow:
It does get old re-reading issues because the poster didn't bother to read the archives from just last week, and/or watch our seniors re-hash old stubborn learned experiances.

The dynamics of powder available changes, thus the Lot# arguments from years back about goex,,thus the discussion of fouling properties and lube, too swab or not,,
Swiss is a better powder than Goex.(period)
It cost's more,,so what? You use less.
It's all about the learning curve, some guy's are willing to try, some aren't, and some WON'T! :surrender:

 

[erzengel]

Hello Ron T.

I use Swiss FFFg, that is labeld Nr. 2 in Germany in my muzzle loaders.

I do target shooting no hunting. My loads are:

Rifle Tryon (Pedersoli percussion) in .451, bullet 230 grain Maxiball, 55 grain of Swiss FFFg. 50m only. Amount of powder depends on barrel. Another Tryon in my association needs with the same bullet just 45 grain. M barrel is 1" longer and .452 bullet fits in my barrel. The other one requires .451.

Rifle Gibbs (Intermarco percussion) in .451 nominal, needs .452, bullet 400 grain Maxiball, 50 grain Swiss FFFg. Lube 103 50m and 100m

Rifle Pennsylvania Carbine (Flint lock by Ardesa)
.440 ball with .10 OX patch 30 grain Swiss FFFg
50m

Not accurat but possible:

Enfield two band, Minie 650 grain .577 with 30 grain Swiss FFFg 100m. Clean holes but I must aim at the ring 1 down. Swiss 4 Fg od Swiss FFg should be loaded. Only a very gentle pushing of the rifle.

Hope you can determine a good starting load and find your target load quick.

 

[rabjr]

Newbie here.

Gonna try some Swiss brand black powder (FFFg) in my .50 caliber Traditions Shenandoah flintlock, but have no loading data for it.

I've heard it is a bit "hotter" than Goex, and so, apparently, the loading data is NOT inter-changable.

I'd like to hear from you fellas & gals who are currently shooting Swiss brand black powder as to what you've found works-for-you for "accuracy" (target) loads and "hunting" loads.

I've shot as much as 90 grains & as little as 35 grains of Goex searching for the most accurate paper-punching and hunting loads and am well-aware of the "match-your-caliber" suggestion, but I have found a good many flinters tend to shoot lighter than "match-your-caliber" loads to "kill" paper with Goex.

However, I have been told and read in variouis forums that Swiss Black Powder shoots "cleaner" and apparently builds more pressure than an equal amount of Goex. I also found it costs considerably more (Swiss was $22 vs. $14 a pound for Goex at Friendship in June).

I currently have a pound of FFFg Swiss, but can get FFg from our local Club President if I find FFg is the preferred powder for .50 caliber. However, 99% of my use is going to be shooting at paper targets and while I hope to "hunt" the Shenandoah this fall, nothing is current set up.

Ok, that's about all the information that has a bearing on my use of the Shenandoah... please give me your experiences with Swiss Black Powder and why you prefer (or don't prefer) it over Goex.

Thanx for your input... :wink:

Ron T.

Well I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn like some may have. I've actually used Swiss Powder. I like it but don't like the price. I found this "sporting Powder" consistent, cleaner and accurate. I still use 2F in my .12 smoothbore and will continue to until I run out. I also just found a can of 3F Swiss that was wrapped up as a birthday present and I had long forgotten about. I plan on using this can in my .36 cal squirrel rifle.

I am however switching over to Grafs and Sons home brand which I have found to be very good powder at a much cheaper price.

 

[Herb]

There is no loading data supplied by Swiss Powder. I called the importer a couple of years ago, and that is what I was told. I have shot some for comparison to other powders, and it gives higher velocity. While it may be clean, I have found heavy fouling at the breech in a .50 and a .58. I mean heavier that Goex 2F. And after only one or two shots. See my post on ".58 Hawken Loads, targets and velocities" in the Percussion forum. Below is comparison velocity data for Goex 2F, 3F and Swiss 2F and 3F in four rifles I built. This will give you an idea of how the stuff burns.

.50 J.H.Johnston caplock copy, 32" Green Mtn barrel. All loads .490 balls, various patches. Goex 2F, 50 gr., 1373 fps mean vel, 67 fps spread, 4 shots.
Swiss 2F, 50 gr, 1489/29/4.
Swiss 3F, 50 gr, 1666/124/4; 1648/122/7; 1688/61/4.
Goex 2F, 90 gr, 1842/92/6
Swiss 2F, 90 gr, 1982/64/5.

.50 Jacob Wigle flint, 38" Rice barrel.
Goex 3F, 50 gr, 1524/16/6; 1572/19/4; 1492/63/4; 1503/29/5.
Goex 2F, 50 gr, 1417/87/5.
Swiss 2F, 50 gr, 1523/9/6.
Swiss 3F, 50 gr, 1618/12/6; 1623/21/5.
Swiss 3F, 80 gr, 2030/36/6 (fouled 4-6" at breech)
Swiss 3F, 80 gr, 1985/28/6 (6 in 0.95" at 50 yards)
Swiss 2F, 80 gr, 1857/39/5.
Goex 3F, 80 gr, 1840/29/5.

Joel Ferree copy flintlock, 38" Rice barrel.
Goex 3F, 50 gr, 1580/35/5.
Goex 2F, 80 gr, 1792/53/5; 1763/33/5.
Swiss 2F, 80 gr, 1938/34/7; 1922/25/5.
Goex 3F, 80 gr, 1936/24/5.
Swiss 3F, 80 gr, 2072/35/6.

Joel Ferree copy flintlock, 42" Green Mtn barrel.
Goex 2F, 80 gr, 1678/44/10; 1642/36/5; 1639/11/4.
Goex 3F, 80 gr, 1696/43/5; 1664/39/5. Right- practically the same velocity as the 2F.

I have used Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F in my .58 Hawkens, and 1 1/2 is great, but fouled the first 4 to 6 inches of the bore at the breech worse that 140 grains of Goex 2F, both with lubed over powder wads. I never wipe between shots and rarely even clean between powder changes, but with that very accurate 120 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and roundball in a .58, I would wipe between shots- if I were shooting a cross-sticks match or some such. Swiss is good powder- but so is Goex.

 

[59sharps]

I find w the swiss I get less fouling that to me makes it cleaner. So call it what you want I will call it cleaner.
now for loads w/ swiss I find I can reduce my loads by 10% over goex. Which for me helps a little not much but a little in the cost differance. and the less powder may also be part of the cleaner (less fouling).