Sword bar dovetail

[Daniels48]

Hi all,

I am just wondering how people have dovetailed their sword bars on their barrels? As per my previous post, I'm building a Baker Rifle from TRS and I want to dovetail it on. I see some people solder/braze it on (I have some nickel silver rods to braze it on) but how would I dovetail it?

It is already curved to the shape of the barrel, so do I either file the base of the sword bar flat and dovetail it in 'traditionally', or can I curve a dovetail onto it and then cut a rounded dovetail, that follows the shape of the barrel and then slot it in.

I plan to fit a sword to this, so will need to file it down anyway to fit as it is quite chunky, and that is why I want to dovetail it.

Any help appreciated!!

 

[hawkeye2]

How do you propose cutting curved dovetails? You don't want to file the base of the bar flat as it won't look or fit correctly. The only solution that comes to my mind is to cut a female dovetail in the bar and a corresponding female one in the barrel then make a piece with a double male dovetail. Place the bar against the barrel and drive the double male piece into both simultaneously then dress with a file.

You do not want to braze, either brass or silver, the piece to the barrel as you'll very likely end up with a tight spot there and possibly scale inside the barrel.

 

[Daniels48]

Interesting idea... So essentially a dovetailed shim that mates the two female dovetails together. That could work. I was directed to this picture taken from The Devizes Gunsmith which seems to show the bar being cut flat where it mates with the barrel and then dovetailed in normally. I'm thinking this might be the best option? Thoughts?

The bar from TRS is around 1/3 too thick, so trimming it down would probably make this type of fitting more appropriate. If anyone else has any experience of fitting TRS Baker sword bars and how they dealt with the curved surface, I'd be most grateful

 

[Artificer]

Interesting idea... So essentially a dovetailed shim that mates the two female dovetails together. That could work. I was directed to this picture taken from The Devizes Gunsmith which seems to show the bar being cut flat where it mates with the barrel and then dovetailed in normally. I'm thinking this might be the best option? Thoughts?

The bar from TRS is around 1/3 too thick, so trimming it down would probably make this type of fitting more appropriate. If anyone else has any experience of fitting TRS Baker sword bars and how they dealt with the curved surface, I'd be most grateful

Daniels48,

Is that a picture of an original Baker Rifle Bar with the sword bar attached?

Need to know that before I can go on.

Gus

 

[Daniels48]

Yes it is

 

[Artificer]

Yes it is

OK, thought so, but just wanted to make sure.

The sword bar was dovetailed into the barrel as was the front sight as well. That was the common way of doing it the time, BTW and then they would often braze the dovetailed parts additionally to give the joint even more strength. However, they risked making a tight spot in the barrel when they brazed the parts on, as Hawkeyes mentioned.

When they dovetailed and brazed front sights onto smoothbore Brown Bess muskets, there is no doubt in my mind they sometimes had to go back and ream the tight spot out of the barrel after brazing.

What you see in the photo of the original indeed shows the sword bar having been dovetailed into the barrel, though I'm not sure if it was also brazed for additional strength. The dovetail on the sword part would have been made "straight across" to go into the straight dovetail in the barrel. However, what you don't see is how they filed the metal of the sword bar close to the curvature of the barrel AFTER they dovetailed it. That is probably what is confusing you into thinking there was some kind of curved dovetail.

Modern day technology allows low temp silver solder to put a sword bar (or front sight) on a barrel without a dovetail and without harming the bore or rifling in a barrel and still providing a very strong joint. Since that is less costly to do than dovetailing front sights, or sword bars or sword bayonet lugs or bars on other rifles or rifled muskets; that's the common way sword bars and bayonet lugs are attached on reproductions.

I found this out by an OOPS that happened when I was soldering on a taller front sight onto a repro Zouave barrel that had a sword bayonet lug on it. While I was "warming up" the barrel to get the solder to flow to attach the taller front sight, the sword bayonet lug fell off. This because that manufacturer had used a cheap/soft solder to attach it, rather than a dovetail and/or low temp silver solder. So I had to solder the sword lug back on with good low temp silver solder before I could solder the front sight on.

Gus

 

[hawkeye2]

That photo really clears things up and also knowing the bar is too thick helps too. I think you are headed in the right direction in post #3. You might consider tinning the bar with soft solder before assembling and soldering after.

"So essentially a dovetailed shim that mates the two female dovetails together." Yes that's what I had in mind. It would have been a fair amount of work.

 

[Daniels48]

Hi Gus,

Thanks very much and that's a funny oops story! I imagine a slight surprise!

I'll have a go at filing it flat and keep my fingers crossed... After my screw up with fitting the front sight, I'd rather not do anything else that could compromise the integrity of the barrel, so some relatively shallow dovetails seem to be the way forward.

Thanks again, appreciate it.
James

 

[Artificer]

"So essentially a dovetailed shim that mates the two female dovetails together." Yes that's what I had in mind. It would have been a fair amount of work.

Sounds like a butterfly joint used in woodworking to repair splits in boards. They had a name for an hour glass shaped wood plug in the 18th and 19th century for that plug, but danged if I can remember it now.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,

Thanks very much and that's a funny oops story! I imagine a slight surprise!

I'll have a go at filing it flat and keep my fingers crossed... After my screw up with fitting the front sight, I'd rather not do anything else that could compromise the integrity of the barrel, so some relatively shallow dovetails seem to be the way forward.

Thanks again, appreciate it.
James

Indeed and strengthening the joint with soft solder, as Hawkeyes mentioned, is a good idea if you don't get a good tight fit. I've done that with low temp silver solder as well.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Rudyard]

I cant say for certain, But I think they brazed on loops ,sights, & B' net bars ,Before fine boring & cutting the rifling .pattern pieces seem to have 3/4" or so longer brls I did own a Chasspotte barrel with all these items affixed but was still smooth bored un rifled .One of the Dixie purchases out of Liege . Whatever modern day brazing can do .I doubt that was the case in earlier times .
Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Well my bit about brazeing originals & there being all brazed loops sight & B net bars ect being all done old style originally & Then fine bored & rifled all 1'' or so longer bit of barrel being seen on pattern pieces ect . & I owned a Chasspott barrel presumably ex Dixie ex Liege purchases . All the loops b 'net bar being fitted but the bore un rifled but Got disallowed going over 30 minuts . So I now offer a Pre PS to my earlier PS ! .
Regards Rudyard

 

[tsmgguy]

Sword bar, brazed, on a Baker Rifle build by The Rifle Shoppe, No evidence of the brazing is visible. Seems very strong:

 

[Rudyard]

Well fine clearly done but how ? . That I could'nt but guess . Low heat silver solder perhaps . I wrote of original practice you might note . I made a Volunteer Baker years ago far as I know the solder has held . If you look at the loops of say a Brown Bess they seemed to cut two tapering chisel cuts to hold a suitably formed loop just long enough to be brazed old style as other wise the distortion would show until fine bored. Even soldering a thin twelve bore barrel can cause the visible distortion and the Brum proof house will ' Reject it before proof ' on that trifling account . I would whisk it round to Bailley & Onions they ran a few passes through ,Ide take it back to the proof house , It got proofed ok and away Ide go . They where less critical if proofed for blanks like the typical Indian musket One day I had some Indian blunderbusses proofed. I'me at the counter & an Office girl shouts "Are they sporting of military ?". The man at the counter shouts back . "Sporting !." adding "Got to be a sport to fire one of these ! "
I had worked them up made them positive fire risks. engraved on them ' Liberty or Deth' or some such " And they sold like hot cakes ..The better muskets Ide grave 'Crown GR', lesser got' Dublin Castle'. but if poor they got' Rapa Forge' ! But they all gave good sparks having ' half sould' them with EN 9 cutlery steel .
Rudyard