T/C Hawken front sight question

[pepperbelly]

I went to the range today. I started at 50 yards and the balls were all over. I moved to 100 yards to make room for a youth .22 match and only put a few on paper.
I recovered a few patches and they looked OK- not burned or torn. I was shooting 80gr FFg in the .50 percussion.
I regularly shoot iron sights at 100 yards with my Swede M38 and Swiss K31, so it's not the distance.
What I was thinking about was this Hawken's front sight isn't a blade. It has a "ball" on the blade. Would a blade front sight make it easier to hit on target?
I tried both a 6 o'clock hold and holding center of target. No difference.
The first round I fired, all prb, hit dead center of the X-ring at 50 yards. The rest were all over. I swabbed the bore after every 4 or 5 rounds.
I am using Hornady .490 round balls and T/C prelubed patches that are, I think, .015. It wasn't hard to start the prb, not real easy either. I used a short starter and pushed the prb down the bore smoothly.
Any ideas?
Jim

 

[roundball]

Well, TC's bead on a post front sights have been in use for 20-30 years so IMO, they're on all my rifles and work OK, so IMO I'd forget about the sight as a cause...there's something else going on somewhere.

You didn't mention 'how' you're shooting so here's something to try to see if the barrel will group at all.

1) Shoot at 25 (50yds if 25's not available at your range);
2) Shoot from a solid bench rest every time;
3) Fold a bright sheet of notebook paper into a large triangle and mount it on the backstop with a point down;
4) Sit the point precisely right on top of the bead;
5) Drop your charge to 60grns target load
6) Wipe the bore after every shot;
7) Breath control
8) Use the set trigger

 

[Rebel]

Do you have any side play in the rear sight? I have seen a few that the sight would move back and forth quite a few thousanths and that much movement will put you all over at even 50 yds. Not the whole sight base mind you, just the leaf with the sight on it.

 

[pepperbelly]

RB I was shooting from a sandbag rest (front only) on a concrete bench. When I first started shooting this rifle I marked the trouble down to it being new. At this point I would consider a 3" group at 50 yards as being new to muzzleloading. I shoot 2"-3" groups at 100 yards with my Swede, so it is something funny here. Either it's something with the rifle or I need more time with it. The rifle was not new when I bought it. The previous owner sold it saying it had only been fired about 10-15 times before being cleaned, oiled and put away.
I use the standard NRA smallbore rifle target with a 6o'clock hold. This target has a generous black area, being designed for 100 yard competition.
The very first shot I fired today hit dead center x-ring. The second was high right. The third was low right if I remember correctly. The shots fired at 100 yards were generally to the right. I tried adjusting the elevation but never seemed to get anything close to consistant to adjust for. I was trying to jus get a group somewhere, and I can work from there, but no grouping at all.
My next trip to the range I will drop the charge tp 60gr, and I think we have a 25 yard lane I can shoot it on. I will use sandbags front and rear.
I will post here after the range session. If it is the barrel I will get another. I only paid $100.00 for the rifle so I ain't gonna lose my shirt if the barrel swap is necessary. Let's eliminate everything else first.
Jim

 

[Zonie]

pepperbelly: The "ball" on the front sight blade bothered me too.
I know others shoot using the 6 o'clock hold but I shoot to the point of aim and found that for me, the ball totally blocked off the small bullseye of the target at 50 yards.
I had a hard time telling myself to shoot when the targets bulls eye disappeared.

After getting some fairly poor groups I set down with my trusty fine toothed file in hand and proceeded to file the bulging sides of the sight flat. This left a narrow, flat bladed sight which I find much easier to aim with.
After filing both sides, I used BC Instant Blueing to touch it up to the point that no one would notice.

 

[oomcurt]

Maybe I am just hard headed..I dunno..but I can relate in way to the fellow's thinking. I would really like to know why dropping the charge to a "target load" is going to make a difference, especially as he is used to shooting at 100 yards or so. I think there is something unsaid with all this, namely..is there or is there not a difference between accurate shooting with a muzzle loader and a modern centerfire rifle? I mean, aside from the variables such as the patch and lube..the rest just boils down to the abiity to shoot. See, what I think most folks however well meaning, have a different view of the "load". A center fire shooter fires the same load be it at a 25 yard target or a 100 yard one. For some reason that I cannot understand...there is this "thing" about firing target loads at a target. To me...assuming I am going to use the rifle for hunting and target shooting be danged..I would want to use the load I will be using in the field. WHY is it so danged hard for most muzzle loaders I have talked to, to get this through thier heads. If there is a valid reason..I sure would love to hear it. And..this idea that it "wastes" powder doesn't bother me in the least. I just don't plumb think that way.

 

[roundball]

Maybe I am just hard headed..I dunno..but I can relate in way to the fellow's thinking. I would really like to know why dropping the charge to a "target load" is going to make a difference, especially as he is used to shooting at 100 yards or so. I think there is something unsaid with all this, namely..is there or is there not a difference between accurate shooting with a muzzle loader and a modern centerfire rifle? I mean, aside from the variables such as the patch and lube..the rest just boils down to the abiity to shoot. See, what I think most folks however well meaning, have a different view of the "load". A center fire shooter fires the same load be it at a 25 yard target or a 100 yard one. For some reason that I cannot understand...there is this "thing" about firing target loads at a target. To me...assuming I am going to use the rifle for hunting and target shooting be danged..I would want to use the load I will be using in the field. WHY is it so danged hard for most muzzle loaders I have talked to, to get this through thier heads. If there is a valid reason..I sure would love to hear it. And..this idea that it "wastes" powder doesn't bother me in the least. I just don't plumb think that way.

I was trying to help an individual who was frustrated with unexplainable results...so I was suggesting an approach that would eliminate or at least minimize a number of variables, all in an effort to see if the barrel whould shoot at all.

A consideration was to reduce the powder charge for two reasons:
1) To reduce even the possibility of potentially unconscious flinching;
2) To reduce the recoil movement of the rifle and make it more manageable, repeatable, consistent, etc;

My approach was to simply see if the barrel would group.

The suggestion of shooting at 25 yds was to minimize possible considerations of potential sighting and/or eyesight issues, glare, etc.

I'm not there, can't see his rifle or how he's shooting it or the range conditions, sunlight, wind, etc, etc...trying to help someone fix a problem "in the blind" so to speak is difficult...so my approach was simply to step back to basics and when he reposted fresh results, they might be a lot more telling.

You have the opportunity to offer your suggestions as well.

 

[roundball]

pepperbelly: The "ball" on the front sight blade bothered me too.
I know others shoot using the 6 o'clock hold but I shoot to the point of aim and found that for me, the ball totally blocked off the small bullseye of the target at 50 yards.
I had a hard time telling myself to shoot when the targets bulls eye disappeared.

After getting some fairly poor groups I set down with my trusty fine toothed file in hand and proceeded to file the bulging sides of the sight flat. This left a narrow, flat bladed sight which I find much easier to aim with.
After filing both sides, I used BC Instant Blueing to touch it up to the point that no one would notice.

FWIW, old style front sights had a fairly large size bead, and TC changed that to a smaller size in later years (P/N 9061) for a more precise sight picture.
I have the small bead on all my rifles and that takes care of the problem of being able to center hold on a target.

However, even when I shot the larger bead (it's not ALL THAT MUCH larger) it still did not cause spraying/erratic results...plus, he said he tried it with a 6 o'clock hold which eliminated any size problem, so IMO, I don't see the front sight as the issue...and they are in use by untold 10's of thousands of TC muzzleloaders.

:m2c:

 

[oomcurt]

Er...I wan't criticizing you. I was only trying to find out why so many experienced shooters have this thing about target loads. As I said..and I would appreciate any input as to whether my "view" of using a field load would not in the long run be better for a hunter. Nothing wrong with target loads per se...but then when someone takes thier rifle and fires a field load in it..all of a sudden there is this increase in recoil among other things. Sort of like starting all over again. That, and again I am only looking at this as a hunter...since one cannot predict what range game will appear at...getting experience as to how far to hold low..or high seems valuable.

 

[rmonday2]

I have a T/C 50cal. and it will not shoot the .010 T/C pre lubed patches worth a dime!

At 50 yards it would spray a 3 to 4 inch group at best, and if this were moved to 100 yards, it would be in the 6 to 8 inch without the deviation of sight hold and target size. regerdless of powder charge, it did not like the .010 patch and .490 ball combination.
I recently tried .015 pillow ticking (which you can purchase by the yard at W-Mart) and the same .490 ball and spit patched with 90gr of 3f Goex, and too my amazment I had a 2" group going on.
Sence then, I have been advised to forget the spit and try the famouse 50/50; 50% Murphy oil soap and 50% of 91%alcohol, AKA "Murphyhol" lub, it is sapposed to be great stuff.
I beleive this is as good a group as can be expected out of a 1 in 48 twist with a round ball, and I'm going to stick with it! Good luck with your trial an error :front: Ronnie....

 

[roundball]

I have a T/C 50cal. and it will not shoot the .010 T/C pre lubed patches worth a dime!

At 50 yards it would spray a 3 to 4 inch group at best, and if this were moved to 100 yards, it would be in the 6 to 8 inch without the deviation of sight hold and target size. regerdless of powder charge, it did not like the .010 patch and .490 ball combination.
I recently tried .015 pillow ticking (which you can purchase by the yard at W-Mart) and the same .490 ball and spit patched with 90gr of 3f Goex, and too my amazment I had a 2" group going on.
Sence then, I have been advised to forget the spit and try the famouse 50/50; 50% Murphy oil soap and 50% of 91%alcohol, AKA "Murphyhol" lub, it is sapposed to be great stuff.
I beleive this is as good a group as can be expected out of a 1 in 48 twist with a round ball, and I'm going to stick with it! Good luck with your trial an error :front: Ronnie....

I think he mentions using .015"....and 015" prelubed patches always do fine for me using light target loads of Goex...I use them off season and can pick them up off the ground and reuse them...usually find them in large quantities at low prices on auctions.
(for hunting loads I use .018" pillow ticking with wonderwads ahead of 90grns Goex 3F)

 

[canyonman]

oomcurt,
I agree with you completely, however so we don't hijack this man's thread... to the original poster, be sure and check the rear sight's spring. I bought a used Renegade once and couldn't get it to shoot worth a hoot. No matter what I did to the sights the gun wouldn't respond. Then one day I was dinking around with the back sight and I flicked it and it suddenly bounced up.
While cleaning it, water had gotten down in that area and froze the sring so that I couldn't get any height adjustment. Just a thought.

Larry

 

[Tahquamenon]

I agree with Roundball.

With muzzleloading, consistancy sometimes to the most minute detail can have a big POI effect on consistancy.

Also, not every rifle shoots the same load well. In fact, most rifles I've found have their own "pet" loads.

Also try to make sure you use the same loading procedure and pressure (how much force are you using to compress the PRB on top of the charge. Patch is arranged the same over the muzzle before you place the RB and short start, etc.

Perhaps your patches have deteriortated? Try getting some dry cotton .015" patches and lightly lube them yourself.

A target/small game load is a great starting place as who want's to beat the manure out of their shoulder with a day at the range shooting heavy hunting loads? Get printing with a lower charge and focus on your loading procedures at a closer distance. Then move out to 100 yards and see where things are printing. Should open up a bit and be slightly low. with your target load. Then do the same with a hunting load. Start closer, get printing tight and move out and minor adjust.

I do the same as Roundball for hunting loads, tight .018" ticking patches, .490" RB and wonderwads on top of the powder.

:m2c:

 

[AeroE]

I wonder if you have checked the gun over for loose joints -
at the sight attachment, the breech plug screw, the fit of the breech hook, the barrel wedge, and so on. If the barrel or sights are shifting, the gun will never shoot to the same point until the fit is corrected.

Do everything with consistency as much as possible for every shot. I would even check the barrel rib, even though that might seem to be an unlikely contributor; the point is to leave no stone unturned.

You might be having trouble with repeating the sight hold precisely from shot to shot - the suggestion to use a v-shaped sighting point with this front sight is very good, just concentrate on making the sight picture identical for every shot. Focus on the front sight, don't try to divide the sight picture between the target and the front sight, let the target get fuzzy.

If the wind is blowing crosswind, for now just strive for a group shot with a repeatable sight picture, don't try to center the group up on the aim point. A strand of surveyor's tape or cassette tape can be used as a tell-tale to permit letting off each shot in identical conditions, just hang it about 1/3 the distance to the target where it's easy to see.

Rifles respond to different holds sometimes - some shoot best free recoil, some want to be held tightly, some like something in between - I have an Anschutz rimfire that shoots best with some down pressure applied at the pistol grip. I wouldn't get too obsessive with experimenting with innumerable combinations of holds, but you might try two or three to see if any changes are notable. The problem with holding the gun is doing it consistently from shot to shot.

 

[arcticap]

oomcurt, one reason that lighter target loads are sometimes recommended to try is because with a 1 in 48inch twist there can be some erratic RB target patterns at the longer ranges with higher velocity loads. Not every gun likes RB hunting loads beyond a certain yardage & vice versa with RB target loads as well.
Personally, I like shooting into a dirt berm at 100 yards at a small object (like a bowling pin) to get an actual sight reading of where the ball is impacting. Due to smoke having an extra person around to spot helps. ::

 

[Charles/NM]

My .50 T/C Hawken experience is pretty much like Arcticap's; any load over 60 grains of ffg open up with RB. My 1970's vintage rifle is most accurate with bullets lubed with T/C yellow manure that are close to 350 grains in weight. 20 grains less or more is OK, but 350 is best. 350 grain T/C hollow point Maxi Hunter bullets are my best with 370 grain Maxi Ball's close behind. I can get around 3/4" 3 shot groups at 75 yards on a good day, more usual is 1" to 1 1/2". My RB accuracy is about 1/2 of that with bullets usually around 3" at 75 yards.
Maybe you should try some bullets and see what your firle does.
Also I don't like the bead front sight because my 65 year old eyes can see a wider post or flat blade sight much better. I skimmed the top and sides of my stock bead sight with a fine file to square it up and will eventually make a wider blade front sight when I find the time. Too many projects and too little time to do them.

 

[Tahquamenon]

The T/C 1:48" Shallow bore .005" rifling will toss roundballs to 100 yards very accuratly with hunting loads.

Like about 2.5-3" groups from a locking benchrest.

But you will likely need to "tight patch" the load. .018" ticking instead of .015" cotton.

I also load a wonderwad on top of the powder then the tigher patched roundball for hunting loads.

 

[pepperbelly]

After reading some replies I started thinking about the pre-lubed patches I had bought. I thought I remember the package saying they were .15". I kust went out to measure them. They are .12" with the lube. I also bought some dry precut pillow ticking patches. They measure .15" dry.
Do ya'll think the patch may be causing the problem?
I really need to get with some local experienced bp shooters.
I bought a tube of the T/C Bore Butter when I bought all the other stuff at the end of last year. Do I just squeeze the bore butter onto the dry patch and spread it on the patch?
Jim

 

[roundball]

After reading some replies I started thinking about the pre-lubed patches I had bought. I thought I remember the package saying they were .15". I kust went out to measure them. They are .12" with the lube. I also bought some dry precut pillow ticking patches. They measure .15" dry.
Do ya'll think the patch may be causing the problem?
I really need to get with some local experienced bp shooters.
I bought a tube of the T/C Bore Butter when I bought all the other stuff at the end of last year. Do I just squeeze the bore butter onto the dry patch and spread it on the patch?
Jim

You had mentioned earlier that used patches looked good, not burned or torn, etc, meaning they were not failing...no blow by, gas cutting, etc, etc.

So IMO, if they're tight enough to seal so they don't get damaged, they're tight enough not to be causing inconsistent shots as close as 50yds.


Lubing Patches

I've always just used OxYoke or TC precut/prelubed patches so someone else will have to chime in.

FWIW, I'd worry that instead of trying to pare down and zero in on your current list of items to investigate accuracy problems, you'll be introducing another new variable of home lubed patches...and I do know that overlubed patches can cause accuracy problems themselves.

:m2c:

 

[pepperbelly]

The patches I recovered had a black ring around where the ball was. The edges were frayed a little but not burned.
The prb starts a little hard but once in the rifling it seems to take what I would guess to be a normal amount of pressure to seat the prb. It isn't hard to push the prb down the bore but isn't easy either. It just feels right, but I am a newbie.
I think I had picked up 2 patches once. The ball would not start.
Jim