T/C Hawken front sight question

[pepperbelly]

I thought I remember the package saying they were .15". I just went out to measure them. They are .12" with the lube. I also bought some dry precut pillow ticking patches. They measure .15" dry.

Would .012" and .015" sound better? Them were sum pretty thick patches.
Jim

 

[roundball]

I thought I remember the package saying they were .15". I just went out to measure them. They are .12" with the lube. I also bought some dry precut pillow ticking patches. They measure .15" dry.

Would .012" and .015" sound better? Them were sum pretty thick patches.
Jim

A black ring around where the ball & patch is normal...one side is from being pressed against the lands & grooves and rubbing fouling off when it's seated and when it travels back up the barrel...the othetr side is stain from being pressed tight against the lead ball...the outside edges being slightly frayed is also normal, from hitting the air at high speed when it exits.

I use .015" prelubed patches for plinking at the range with target loads, and I use thicker/stronger TC .018" prelubed pillow ticking patches for hunting loads.

Here's a photo of 40 - .015" OxYoke prelubed cotton patches with target loads from a .50cal TC Hawken...the top 20 show bottom/fire burned sides...the bottom 20 show sides that were wrapped around balls:

 

[pepperbelly]

That's what mine look like.
What do you think about the patch being thinner than I thought? I figure that .012 lubed is about the same as .010 dry.
Jim

 

[roundball]

That's what mine look like.
What do you think about the patch being thinner than I thought? I figure that .012 lubed is about the same as .010 dry.
Jim

It's a pretty safe rule of thumb that the tighter the ball/patch combination, the tighter the group.

BUT...

That's when comparing group sizes which are already both very good, just a matter of degree...ie: 1.3" group shrinks to 1.0", etc...nothing like the scattered shots you've described.

If your patches looked like those in the photo, I don't know of any way they could look that good and cause the inconsistency you described.

 

[arcticap]

I think that you're on the right track pepperbelly. I hand lub my patches with thin vinyl gloves & it melts in with hand warmth. Someone named "old ford" here recommended to me to try a dry patch down over the powder before ramming in the patched ball (instead of using a wonder wad, they can be costly). Also, not every gun is going to shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards. I have trouble even seeing that far never mind shoot at it! The more powder you use, the higher the cost, the more accuracy robbing fouling and the more recoil to ruin a shot. Lastly, I was measuring some balls the other day with some + - .0005 electronic calipers. I found that some old Hornady's were a bit more out of round and larger than Speer. Go figure! Not that it matters when being fired, but even RB's aren't all made equal. Keep plugging away at it, if it was easy to shoot like a laser it just wouldn't be as much fun. Even the official 100 yard NMLRA targets have a 12 inch scoring diameter with a 6 inch black center, and it's only half as big at 50 yards. If I can keep shots on a paper plate offhand at 50 yards, it keeps me happy! :blue:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I will add to what Zonie said I have no use for "pronghorn" or whatever you want to call the modern sights. My new Express I must add is an exception as it uses a very small ball that you can center on the bull. I've seen all kinds of sights on m/l small white diamonds under the "ball" with progressive v notches and all but plain old square notched sights work best for me. You do not have to guess where to aim or where the last shot you made was targeted. I find the new sights cause vertical stringing.

My two cents for what they are worth I am not the best shot in the world.

PS I don't care for the fiber optic things either.

 

[pepperbelly]

RB, I haven't had time to look yet, but I wonder if the stock may be putting pressure on the barrel. All my shots have been with the forend of the stock resting on sandbags. I hold the buttstock into my shoulder not rested. When I get back to the range I will try some shots offhand. I am also going to cover the backstop with white paper behind the target. With a big enough area I may see a pattern.
Thanks,
Jim

 

[roundball]

IMO, shooting it offhand will simply make matters worse and far more confusing to try and do any analysis.

Even if the rifle is reacting to being benched, it should react the same way every time, assuming your doing everything the same every time.

As you probably already know....resist the temptation of trying to zero the sight after every couple shots...you can end up chasing your tail, burn up ammo, and still be scratching your head (I know!)

My suggestion would be to just shoot in a consistent, precise, repeatable fashion and just look for grouping...as an example, at this point it doesn't matter at all if the group is 4" left at 10:00 o'clock...you're just trying to see what it takes to group acceptably...you can move/zero the group later

:m2c:

 

[Tahquamenon]

IMO, shooting it offhand will simply make matters worse and far more confusing to try and do any analysis.

Even if the rifle is reacting to being benched, it should react the same way every time, assuming your doing everything the same every time.

As you probably already know....resist the temptation of trying to zero the sight after every couple shots...you can end up chasing your tail, burn up ammo, and still be scratching your head (I know!)

My suggestion would be to just shoot in a consistent, precise, repeatable fashion and just look for grouping...as an example, at this point it doesn't matter at all if the group is 4" left at 10:00 o'clock...you're just trying to see what it takes to group acceptably...you can move/zero the group later

:m2c:

:agree: Well said. :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

As you probably already know....resist the temptation of trying to zero the sight after every couple shots...you can end up chasing your tail, burn up ammo, and still be scratching your head (I know!)

What he said. I'm working in the iron fixed sights of a new flintlock and, so far, I have filed enough to get them all on paper at 50 yards. The temptation to zero the group is enormous, but then if I change a component for accuracy I may be S.O.L. as you can't put filed away metal back.

Muzzleloaders are a different beast in bench shooting. The rammer contacts the thimbles, which are pinned to the barrel. The barrel is keyed or pionned in one to as many as four places along the stock. These make resting a heavy barrel in various spots a recipe for point-of-impact changes.

Always shoot with the rammer in place. Always rest your hand on the bench vise/pillows and make your hand the only contact point (same spot offhand as rested). I always grab mine at the entry pipe.

Once you get your groups small, then worry about moving them into the bullseye. That's the easy part. :winking:

After filing away thickness and height I made my life simpler and just swapped out my silver blade for a 1/16" thick version. I am hoping that little feller doesn't disappear entirely with my eyes & at the end of a 44" barrel, but so far it is nice on targets. It is sensitive to sun angle, but I found that by draccing a single-cut file across it hard I could create a series of grooves side-to-side (ala Colt pistol ramp sights) that make it show up much better in low light and cut the glare in direct sunlight.

The rear is flat, with a narrow groove, and just a slight rounded depression. It give me a quick alignment by bringing the target into the little depression, and then I "draw a fine bead" with the narrow blade below it. Much finer than the multi-purpose T/C Contender pistol sights I'm used to from my Renegade and New Englander.

 

[pepperbelly]

Yeah, I know better than to adjust too early, and to get a group first.
Stumpy I like that sight. The front ball on my Hawken is just too big, I think.
Your comment about resting it the same may have a point. My T/C Hawken has one wedge holding the barrel to the stock, along with the hooked breech. If I laid the rifle on the bags once with the wedge in front of the sandbags and the next time behind them it could cause this.
I gotta get to the range.
Jim

 

[arcticap]

One of the main points that I was trying to make to you pepperbelly is that the enjoyment of muzzle loading for me is not necessarily to obtain 1, 2 or 3 minute of angle accuracy at 100 yards, especially with the types of guns that I, or many people chose to shoot. The enjoyment is simply in the shooting and the ocassional great shot that comes when it comes. Some guns and shooters have more great shooting occasions than others depending on a wide host of factors too numerous to mention. But I never get disappointed whenever I get to make smoke because it's just never only about accuracy. If it was, then muzzle loading wouldn't be my preferred method of shooting, at least not with the particular equipment that I have chosen anyway. :winking:

 

[Stumpkiller]

True enough. One minute-of-squirrel-head is nice out to 30 yards or so, and after that one brisket-of-whitetail sized groups are good enough out to 100 yards.

Gets right down to it, where I hunt, a gun that can group 10" at 45 yards would keep your freezer full of venison.

If I had a rifle that would shoot 6" groups at 60 yards I would be disappointed, but I would still be out on opening day if that's what I had to use.

Rifling adds a nuisance factor to firelocks. Harder to load, harder to clean, heavier barrel needed, more prone to rust. If accuracy wasn't important I'd be shooting a smooth rifle, musket or trade gun and making my life easier.

Working towards accuracy is fun and rewarding for some of us. Sometimes frustrating, but worth it when it comes together. Shooting is just another martial art that rewards practice and persistance and leads to skill.

 

[pepperbelly]

I am not chasing accuracy now. I am trying to get this rifle to group, or at least stay on paper.
I don't have an unrealistic expectation about how accurate this rifle will be. If accuracy was all I was after I would use my Swede or Swiss. This Hawken is throwing balls all over the target, and off the target. It isn't making any sense. I know I can and do, shoot accurately at 100 yards and more, so I know this problem isn't all me.
I plan on getting to the range this weekend. We will see.
Jim

 

[canyonman]

Srub the he!! out of your barrel, check all your screws to make sure they're tight, check your sights make sure they're tight, shoot a scrubload of 30 to 40 grains before you shoot for paper then clean as you would between shots, and lastly try a bore button-cardboard wad-wonderwad (whatever) over your powder.

Good luck
Larry

 

[rmark]

Assuming your sights are tight -
You should shoot from a rest at 25 - 50 yards,
firing 5 shots each from a range of powder charges.
Start with 50 grains and go up 5 at a time to 90 (if you guns maker allows it)
using .490 and .495 roundballs
with patches from .01 - .015 - .02.

As examples, I had a Pedersoli Tryon .50 with 1-48 twist that would shoot a cloverleaf at 50 yards, using .490 AND .495 balls (i forget the charge i used, i think 60 grains). It just wasn't picky about the load. No cleaning between shots.

Currently I have a TC Hawken with a Green Mtn. 1-66 .50 barrel. At 50 yards and 75 grains Pyrodex RS, .495 scrap lead ball, .018?? ticking patch (home cut, about this thick), spit lubed (i'm cheap and drool easily ), it shot 6 shots in a group the size of a musket cap tin. But go up or down 10 grains and the group goes pieces with flyers 6" away to each side.

You will have to experiment. It can be frustrating. Once you have a tight group st short range, then start moving back.

 

[pepperbelly]

Thanks Mark. That is the plan. I only have Hornady .490" round balls. I plan to find some different patches or just lube the pillow ticking patches I have now.
This rifle is a T/C Hawken with the original 1:48 barrel. It's in very good almost new condition so it should take any reasonable load.
Your comment about getting fliers at different loads may make the most sense. I have only shot about 3 different loads, 70, 80, and 90 grains of FFg. Hopefully I can get a little more time than I have had to do some serious work at the range.
Jim

 

[rmark]

Muzzleblasts magazine had a very good series of articles by Fred Stutzenburger in the Febuary, March, and April 2001 issues titled 'Blackpowder Precision'. You should be able to request copies through interlibrary loan at your local library or the NMLRA may have old issues available.