T/C Hawken lock problem

[Tron Wayne]

Howdy, I'm new to the forum and muzzleloading as well. I recently bought my first rifle, a .50cal T/C Hawken Cougar. It shoots great but lately I've run into a problem.

When pulling the set trigger and then the firing trigger, the hammer doesn't seem to hit the percussion caps hard enough to fire them. When pulling the firing trigger alone, the caps fire every time.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[buford87]

Before you do anything you should remove the lock and clean out all of the old oil and or grease. Use an old toothbrush and some kind of degreaser, brake cleaner will work if you can't find something else, then after clean apply a light coat of oil to the moving parts of your lock. The old oil tends to thicken up and slow everything down, this should help , if not then we can look for a problem................watch yer top knot....................

 

[roundball]

Now that's does sound strange...using the firing trigger by itself or the set trigger/firing trigger option only influences which of the triggers raises up to hit the sear arm bar, to disengage the sear from the tumbler notch.
Once the sear is pulled out of the tumbler so the mainspring can rotate the tumbler which drops the hammer down onto the cap is the same...regardless of which trigger operation was used to disengage the sear at the beginning of the cycle.
Maybe some coincidences crept into the range session and made it seem like the scenario you described, dunno.

Caps intermittently failing to fire are usually because they don't fit the top of the nipple all the way down...sometime dry firing can beat a nipple enough so the top gets widened a tad and the caps don't seat down all the way flush, so there's no anvil effect under the cap when the hammer drops...the cap simply gets seated further down when the hammer hits it, absorbing the hammer impact, and sometimes not firing until the next hammer drop.
Accidentally using smaller #10 caps instead of #11s can cause similar symptoms.

If it was me and the Cougar was pre-owned/used, I'd install a new 1/4"x28 Hot Shot nipple and take it from there.

 

[ron ward]

roundball's right, there should be no difference, respectably speaking....the only thing i can think of out of this is that there might be something restricting movement of the sear when it's left on it's own to get out of the way of the tumbler when using the set phase.
when you use the unset phase, your trigger finger,s squeeze naturally forces the sear out of the way, over-powering the sear spring and keeping it away from the tumbler for the instant the tumbler rotates. in the set phase the sear is allowed to ride on the tumbler's surface after disengaging, so if crud or junk restricts it's travel away from the tumbler, that might slow things down enough to not build the inertia needed.
is there a half **** position for the hammer?... are you sure you are not using the set phase in the half **** position? ( no flames intended,just thinking of possibilities!)

 

[Semisane]

I would suspect the screws holding the bridle are loose.

 

[Blackpowdersmoke]

If it was me and the Cougar was pre-owned/used, I'd install a new 1/4"x28 Hot Shot nipple and take it from there.

Yea, I'll go with roundball on this one. It's possible that a previous owner replaced the nipple at some point in time with the wrong one. T/C makes several 1/4x28 nipples, and they're not all the same length (of cone). For instance, the nipple for the Hawken/Cougar and the nipple for their Firehawk in-line are both 1/4x28 #11 nipples, but the Firehawk nipple is shorter. Go with a new Hot Shot nipple for Hawken first, that may take care of the problem.

BPS

 

[necchi]

I would suspect the screws holding the bridle are loose.

+1
Cleaning and freash oil like Buford said is always a good idea,,
But there is a flat plate inside on the lock that is held in by two screws.
If one or both of those two screws are the tinniest bit loose a small lock part called the "Fly Detent" will move out of postition and actually stop the hammer before it it's the cap.

Those screws are notourious for comming loose.
Simple fix for am simple problem

 

[runnin lead]

I would suspect the screws holding the bridle are loose.[/quote

Blue locktite will keep them from coming loose again. The screws holding the bridle on my lock on my flintlock came loose, they wont any more.

The screw holding the hammer on my 74 sharps kept coming loose & blue locktite solved the problem there also.
:thumbsup:

 

[Bill Hall]

That is a toughy. Like others have mentioned, it shouldn't make any difference as long as the sear is tripped. I think I might know what the problem is though.

There is a small piece in the tumbler called a "fly", which keeps the sear nose from engaging the halfcock notch when the hammer is traveling forward. The fly is only needed when using the set trigger. When just using the front trigger, the fly is sort of by-passed. On the T/C lock I have, I can feel a delay when letting the hammer down slowly, as the sear is riding over the fly. The hammer stops momentarily, then continues the rest of the way to the nipple. This delay has no effect when actually firing the rifle, momentum carries the hammer down smoothly. But, if something were to cause the main spring to weaken or bind, like a worn out spring or crud in the works, the delay caused by the sear riding over the fly could cause the hammer to slow down, and strike the cap more weakly. When using only the front trigger, the hammer travel would have no interruption, thus more momentum when striking the cap.

Like someone mentioned, clean the heck out of the internal parts first, that may be your whole problem. If that doesn't work, I'd say your mainspring is too weak, and needs to be replaced. Good luck. Bill

P.S. Loose screws can also be the problem, causing the mainspring to not work properly with the other parts.

 

[peter hawbaker]

Snowdragon has it, I am surprised that the others say there is no difference in how the sear is tripped. When the front trigger is pulled without using set trigger, the sear is held free of the tumbler and the fly. When the set trigger is used, the set trigger "slaps" the sear, dislodging sear nose from full **** notch, but the sear is dragging on the tumbler, and especially the fly, as the hammer falls. Normally the lock should bust caps regardless, but if the lock is gummed up, dirty, or has a weak mainspring, the added drag of the sear on tumbler and especially the fly when using set trigger could definitely cause what you describe, as the hammer would be striking the cap slower and with less force.

As the others have said, check the screws and give it a good cleaning. In a proper functioning lock, the difference in hammer fall whether triggers are set or unset is negligible, but there IS a difference.

 

[roundball]

It'll be interesting if that's what it turns out to be...personally I've never used a dirty side lock, so this may be a new one on me

 

[Leatherbark]

The fly is missing and the half **** notch is momentarily catching the tumbler slowing it down when the set trigger is used.

Bob

 

[Rifleman1776]

That is a toughy. Like others have mentioned, it shouldn't make any difference as long as the sear is tripped. I think I might know what the problem is though.

There is a small piece in the tumbler called a "fly", which keeps the sear nose from engaging the halfcock notch when the hammer is traveling forward. The fly is only needed when using the set trigger. When just using the front trigger, the fly is sort of by-passed. On the T/C lock I have, I can feel a delay when letting the hammer down slowly, as the sear is riding over the fly. The hammer stops momentarily, then continues the rest of the way to the nipple. This delay has no effect when actually firing the rifle, momentum carries the hammer down smoothly. But, if something were to cause the main spring to weaken or bind, like a worn out spring or crud in the works, the delay caused by the sear riding over the fly could cause the hammer to slow down, and strike the cap more weakly. When using only the front trigger, the hammer travel would have no interruption, thus more momentum when striking the cap.

Like someone mentioned, clean the heck out of the internal parts first, that may be your whole problem. If that doesn't work, I'd say your mainspring is too weak, and needs to be replaced. Good luck. Bill

P.S. Loose screws can also be the problem, causing the mainspring to not work properly with the other parts.

Re-read wat Snowdragon said and heed.
Cleaning is #1.
And, as another suggested, the fly is missing.
That was my first thought.
Fly missing or not working. High probability that is cause of yer problem.

 

[Dphar]

Howdy, I'm new to the forum and muzzleloading as well. I recently bought my first rifle, a .50cal T/C Hawken Cougar. It shoots great but lately I've run into a problem.

When pulling the set trigger and then the firing trigger, the hammer doesn't seem to hit the percussion caps hard enough to fire them. When pulling the firing trigger alone, the caps fire every time.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks!

You need professional help. Call TC.

Dan

 

[Tron Wayne]

Well, thanks all for the great advice. I've got a new hot-shot nipple on order, but am thinking that it's dirt or mechanical problem in the lock.

I think I will give TC a call as well. I don't have the guts to dissemble the lock myself at this point.

 

[Bill Hall]

No need to disassemble the lock. Just romove the lock (easy), get a can of WD-40 with the little straw and blast the internal parts (power wash!), wipe away excess oil, check all the little screws with a good fitting screwdriver (make sure they are good n tight), reinstall the lock and see how it works. Might be all that is needed. Bill

 

[runnin lead]

When you pull the trigger it pushes up on the sear
arm/ bar & in turn pushes the sear out of the notch in the tumbler & holds it away from the half **** notch so that with the regular triger no fly is needed.

With the set trigger the trigger slaps up on the sear arm & knocks the sear out of the sear notch in the tumbler.No pressure is maintained on the sear arm to hold the sear away from the tumbler away from the halfcock notch in the tumbler.
The fly in the direction of rotation to **** is moved in to position to allow the sear to ride over side of the fly & thus not catch on the halfcock notch.

When the bridle screws are loose the fly is not held down all the way against the tumbler allowing the bottom of the fly to ride over the end of the sear &the sear catching on the half **** notch instead of the sear riding over the side of the fly & over the halfcock notch in the tumbler.

Tightening the bridle screws will hold the fly in place to function properly.

You can clean the lock with solvent without disassembly of the lock,just remove the lock from the stock.

If you tighten the screws & remove & replace one at a time you can use blue locktite to keep them from loosening & backing out again . if you use red locktite heat may be required if it ever needs to be taken apart. if you use green a LOT of
heat would need to be used. don't even think of using green locktite.

 

[necchi]

When the bridle screws are loose the fly is not held down all the way against the tumbler allowing the bottom of the fly to ride over the end of the sear &the sear catching on the half **** notch instead of the sear riding over the side of the fly & over the halfcock notch in the tumbler.

Tightening the bridle screws will hold the fly in place to function properly.

Amen brother, I'm suprised all of the advice here has skipped over this very important and common issue with T/C locks.
I tried earlier to no avail.
I've seen it happen MANY times, simple cleaning, a little oil and TIGHTEN those screws and it's good..

 

[ChrisHarris]

I don't have the guts to dissemble the lock myself at this point.

You don't have to disassemble it all the way.

I took my lock out of my .45 TC Hawken last weekend after I spent the day shooting it. Was my first time looking at the lock on that rifle. I bought it used and that was the first time I ever shot it.

It's EASY.

Just pull the main screw and slide it out. Then you can check those 2 little screws at the top of the flat plate. They should be snugged up good.

Take a plastic brush and a can of solvent and scrub the snot out of everything. Dry it off and then spray a little lube on it. Put it back in the gun and snug the screw up.

It really is that easy to clean and inspect it.

If you want to know what it SHOULD look like, I'll take a picture of mine tomorrow evening when I'm cleaning it. Then you can compare to yours and see if it's actually missing any parts.

Don't try and take that main spring out unless you have a special tool to do the job. It's tough as nails. I struggled with mine for 5 minutes and broke a sweat trying to compress it enough to pull the pin and get it out. Gave up. Just scrub any gunk out of the spring and wipe it down. Not worth taking it out just to say you took it out IMO. It's exposed enough that you should be able to clean it up good with a brush.

 

[roundball]

Removing the mainspring on a T/C lock is very straight forward.

I put the hammer all the way forward to allow the spring to relax all the way;
In this position the end of he rod is just barely held in place in the stirrup of the tumbler;

Then I use a pair of needle-nose pliers and just push the end of the rod against the coil spring enough to allow it to drop out of the stirrup.


I've seen another way posted but didn't like how it sounded and never tried it...but FWIW, the posting was to move the hammer to half ****, pinch/clamp the mainspring tight against the rod with vise-grips, lower the hammer all the way forward, and then the mainspring & rod should drop out easily.