T/C QLA Muzzle - Anybody Had Accuracy Problems?

[NoJacketRequired]

I haven't yet found a load my .50 cal T/C Renegade likes to shoot, which is a disappointment because I really like the feel, fit and finish of this rifle. This is a real contrast to my Traditions Hawken which shoots PRB amazingly well and does OK to well with some conicals. I've spoken to one gentleman who recommended lopping off the QLA muzzle as he claims they're sometimes not machined square to the bore, and they prevent the factory from doing a good job of crowning the barrel.

Has anybody here had experience to support or refute this concept? I'm loathe to even consider such a modification to my rifle, but if it's a common problem and surgery is the only cure, then that might be my only option. In the meanwhile, it's back to the bench for more load testing...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Before I circumcised it I'd contact T/C about sending the barrel back for them to inspect. They have a good reputation of standing behind their products. I have an older Renegade that is well used and well loved, (and a New Englander and a couple Contenders) but have never owned one of their recessed muzzle barrels. I doubt they'd produce something they hadn't worked the bugs out of. (But then again, the bead sight in my New Englander kit, #501, was of a larger thread size than the tapped hole already in the barrel). Last I knew Fox Ridge Outfitters (the T/C Custom Shop) sold 1:66" drop in barrels for T/C muzzleloaders. Something to consider.

http://www.foxridgeoutfitters.com/detail.cfm?section=search&product=3176

Yep. They still do.

 

[cayugad]

I agree with stumpkiller. I do not think T/C would have put the loading end of the barrel on if they were not sure it would work. I do not think I would cut it off, I would call or snail mail T/C with your problem or question. They are real good about answering.

I have an old renegade. It is a .54 caliber. I found that it shoots best with light loads. 70 grains for roundball and 80 grains for conicals. Actually one day I was shoot round ball with 50 grains of RS and the accuracy was fantastic. We were shooting eggs with REAL concials one afternoon in the back yard loading 70 grains of RS so the recoil would not hurt the ladies. They were blasting old eggs left and right with it.

I did order two barrels from Green Mountain Barrel Co. for it. I got a .58 caliber 1:70 and a .62 caliber smoothie. I have shot the smoothie but have not had a chance to shoot the .58 caliber. Perhaps this weekend I will get a chance to throw some lead through it.

 

[Ohio Joe]

I get good patched roundball accuracy from my .54 T/C QLA Hawken Rifle... 2" groups at 50 yards, and 4" groups at 100 yards, both from hunting cross sticks in the kneeling possition. To get these groups I had to thin the basketball bead on the front sight with a file and put a dab of white paint on the front sight, but it's a shooter. .530 Hornady RB, .018 ticking patch, 90 grains 2fg Goex, #11 RWS cap... Excellent hunting load on deer and antelope. I really think thinning the front sight is the key, but everyone is different on how they see their sight picture. It works for me.

 

O.K. Jacket, we need details. What loads have you tried?
At waht distance and from a bench rest and so on. Details, man, details! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
And YES, T/C would put somethig out on the market that had bugs in it.
I've owned many Renegade/Hawkens/Treehawk/Greyhawk/White Mountain Carbines and so forth. At least SIX went back to T/C. Of course T/C made them right and in quick order, but they do put some manure out on the market.
I've read for years how good/bad T/C rifles are. This is subjective of course. What's good. And what's bad?
I've NEVER owned even one factory T/C that shot GOOD , medicore at best. However I still have several T/C rifles and one shotgun, but NOT ONE of the rifles has the original T/C barrel.
The WMC I had was a pretty little carbine with nice burl in the butt stock, but shoot it would not. I sent the thing back, TWICE! I spoke the the technician who explained they rifled some .50's with a 1:20 twist, mine was a .54 and was "accidently" rifled 1:48, the newest tube shot pretty well, 4" at 100 with Maxiballs (nice name for a bullet what?) and was supposed to be rifled 1:32.
Back to your question about the QLA. yes it's a good idea, but the caveat is that if the thing isn't square with the axis if the bore it's xauses more problems than it fixes.
What kind of accuracy are you getting at what distance?
I agree that if you can't develope a good laod, then ship it back to T/C, They have a LOT of experience replacing barrels.

 

[roundball]

I have a houseful of TC Hawkens and only had one with a QLA...but since I normally shoot PRB, I immediately realized it was a PITA for me to fiddle with keeping the RB centered while dropping in down that false muzzle.
In addition, it's a waste of a good inch of rifling if you only use PRB's cause you don't need to "align" a perfectly round sphere.
I sent it back to TC, told them I was totally disatisfied with it, they exchanged it for a barrel without the QLA.

I've got a number of TC 1:66" RB barrels plus some standard 1:48's, and they're all more accurate than I can shoot them.

Whenever I do shoot the occasional conical like .45cal Maxi-Hunters, I use TC's 4-N-1 Quick Shots to ensure perfect alignment into the muzzles.

 

[NoJacketRequired]

Geez guys - great posts, one and all!

For those who are looking for details (yes Maxiball, that would be you! LoL), I've only tried one ball, Hornady .490 as that's about all I can readily get around here. I've tried about six different patching materials (.010, .015, .018 precut ticking patches, as well as some muzzle-cut patches of different denims and the lining from an old down sleeping bag...). I've tried a fairly narrow assortment of lubes, Wonderlube, Crisco, T/C's Bore Butter and a lanolin-based product, FluidFilm. Loads started out at 45 grains of FFg Goex black powder and were worked up to 100 grains. Then I tried the same thing with Triple7. All shots were taken from a proper bench rest placed under the wedge pin at a range of 50 yards. Loads were loaded both freehand and using T/C quickshot loaders with built-in starter. The best group to date is just over 3", with the worst group being, well, let's just say I don't have a measuring stick that long!

I thought I was just plain incompetent until I did the same tests with my Traditions. The same Hornady .490 ball with .015 precut ticking patch over 70 grains of FFg BP or 65 grains of FFg Triple7 produces three shot groups as good as 0.5" centre-to-centre, and averaging about 3/4" - anywhwere from a cloverleaf to a ragged hole. Most of the difference in group size is likely attributable to my own error as I can willingly produce a half inch group if I've got my head together.

So all you foks with more experience than I have probably already found some errors in what I'm doing. I'd welcome your suggestions for improvement as I really don't want to do the Texas chainsaw massacre on my Renegade barrel. Hmmm, I wonder if T/C still has some of those non-QLA barrels available...

 

[NoJacketRequired]

Actually, I'll add a couple more details. I've tried spit-patch swabbing between shots, no swabbing at all, and spit-patch followed by lubed patch between shots. The gun seemed to shoot better when not swabbed at all, but only for about four shots and then things got much worse very quickly.

One other point. I live up north in Kanuckistan (aka Canada) where these muzzleloaders are considered firearms and therefor have to be registered. Since the barrel is the place where the serial number is stamped, the barrel becomes the firearm in the eyes of our all-knowing government. This means the only way I can get a replacement barrel is through a Canadian dealer, otherwise I have to go through getting import and export permits, etc. Getting a warranty replacement from T/C would probably take me two years to get through the paperwork mess... :curse: Plus it costs me 25 bucks to register the new barrel. :curse: So all you folks down south should treasure the freedoms you've got, and fight like hell to keep 'em!

 

Nojacket,
I can't see what you are doing wrong. You are using acceptable lubes and your starting charges are about spot on as are the patches.
I'm one of those people that never really got a good shooting T/C 1:48 barrel none of the many I had would group anything, ball or bullet, well.
Now many T/C 1:48 owners get good p/r/b results with light charges of powder, i.e. 45 or 50 grains, but accuarcy goes south with charges heavier than about 75 grains.
I don't have answers to the difference in performance from different shooters with the same name brand rifle and same twist rate.
I've seen fellas at the range with T/C 1:48 rifles claiming "real sweet" groups only to see the target was peppered with holes all over the 10" black circle at 50 yards.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My first M/L was a .54 Renegade in 1979 that shot both PRB and Maxi-balls well. I swapped that off (I used to go through guns like Clinton went through interns), but bought another in the mid 80's that I still have. I still kick myself because that first rifle had a drop-dead gorgeous swirl in the walnut and the second one is as straight grained as cedar. That one shoots PRB well with up to 100 grs of powder. With 42 grs of FFFg it is my favorite squirrel rifle. Around 1980 I had a .36 Seneca that loved stiff Maxi-ball loads, but that one also only liked low power PRB loadings.

My .50 New Englander, a kit from the mid 90's, just does not like PRB with any more than about 60 grs, but thrives on 350 gr. Maxi-Hunters. The smooth barrel for that gun shoots a .715" PRB into 6" at 60 yards just about where it is 'aimed', which make it a pretty effective howitzer or brush gun (though I've never had the courage to try it on deer).

All these T/Cs rifles had 1:48 rifling.

 

[squirejohn]

NoJacketRequired-
Have you tried putting your hand under the wedge pin? Also my wife has a .54c smoothbore that I cannot get to group off the bench at all - why I haven't a clue. It does however shoot good groups offhand. Seems as though you've tried everything else.

 

[Ohio Joe]

"NoJacket", let me expand a bit on my last post. As I said, I have a .54 T/C Hawken with the QLA Barrel. Mine is a 25th Anniversary Model that came in kit form. I chose the kit as I want to be in control of how it goes together, not someone a thousand or more miles away. With that said, this is what I did, and do. 1. I thinned the front sight to remove that bead on the blade, it gives a much better sight picture this way. 2. I checked the rear sight to make sure it was tight to the barrel, it wasn't, now it is with locktite. 3. I checked to see if the barrel needed bedded, it did not. 4. I made the wedge fit as tight as I felt I could get away with, as I do not believe in removing any barrel once your zeroed in for the purpose of cleaning. I remove the barrel once a year for complete cleaning a month before hunting season begins, then I re-zero in. 5. I worked up my best load, and it was 65 grains of 2fg Goex off cross sticks at 50 yards - kneeling (the way I take 90% of my hunting shots). I got 3 shot groups that measure 7/8 of an inch consistantly. 6. I wanted a more powerful load so I worked up to 90 grains 2fg Goex from the same shooting possition. Yes, my group did open up at 50 and 100 yards, but within what I felt was acceptable accuracy to me, (2" at 50 yds, and 4" at 100 yds). 7. I did all my zeroing in in my hunting clothes because of the trigger pull, and how I lay my head on the comb. It must be the same for good accuracy. 8. I found that the .530 Hornady Rnd Ball and an .018 tho ticking patch was a good combination for this barrel. 9. I did swab between shots, but I also cleaned the barrel very good after every third shot. It took many a trips to the range to get this rifle where I wanted it, but it's there. The QLA barrel? I could take it, or leave it. I don't have a problem with it, so it stays. I hope somewhere in all these words it helps you out.

 

[gordy]

I have an older model Renegade bought used,(mis-used)from a Pawn Shop!It does quite well with PRB up to 65grs. Pryodex RS,or 45-50grs.of P at anything over the 65 RS or 50 P the groups begin to open wide.I've been toying with the idea of boreing out the rifleing and makeing a smoothbore.The QLA feature is a waste as I shoot PRBs.I wouldn't cut the barrel off unless it were the last resort.Sorry to hear how restrictive the regulations have gotten in Canada.I own land there,and had hoped to do a little hunting on it,But crossing the border with firearms is too much hassle.Everyone here best look hard at whats happened to You and be ever watchfull or it will happen here.The #&*!&* politicians can,t be trusted to guard the 2nd amendment or any other of Our Rights. :curse: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

A gentle crown is how to get the barrel shooting correctly. I have gone the route of funnel-shped, very rounded, to almost no crown at all. The one I prefer is almost a 45 degree angle with rounded corners. It seems to shoot extremely well, yet allows loading a tight patched ball.
: This would mean cutting the muzzle off, back to rifling, then with a ball bearing, about 1" or larger, with emery to cut a nicley radiused crown. This is about the easiest way of doing it concentrically. Every 10 seconds or so, rotate the barrel 45 degrees to keep the crown even all the way around. You can finish off with just emery under your thumb.
Daryl

 

[squirejohn]

Before you try any "drastic" modifications I'd try and find a source of larger balls. I have a GMB .50c barrel for my TC Hawken that only likes a .500c ball with 90g. of 2f and a teflon coated pillow ticking patch. I's very accurate but needs to be loaded started with a mallet - a real pain in the butt.

 

[jrdavis]

something you could try is coning the barrel...this would correct any misalinement that might be in the QLA..joe woods sels them out of Muzzlebasts or muzzleloader.
I'ed only do this if Thompson Center fails to correct the problem...be fun to play with before and after

 

The problem with too long a crown as in this case, is that the patch can hit or grab it on the way out, possibly disturbing the ball, or it is disturbed by the gases blasting past the ball/patch while it is still technically inside the barrel. I'd cut the thing off, personally.
: In the buttoned, 48' twists, we found a ball no more than .005" less than bore size with a substancial patch gave acceptable accuracy. Of coure we were younger and stronger then. We used .020" denim patches and .495" balls. A short starter with a large hardwood knob was used to smash the ball flush with the muzzle for trimming off the strip pach material. With this combination, we were able to shoot all day long without needing to swab or otherwise clean the bore. Some guys complained this was too difficult to load, but it really wasn't difficult & mallets weren't needed.
Daryl

 

[jrdavis]

when you cone a barrel you put a long taper from the muzzle[url] down...in[/url] this case it would be a about two inches .I have a numbet of thompson centers I'll have to see if I have one with the TLA to play with. all the barrels that I have crowned did shoot better.

 

[roundball]

I think that's why real 'false muzzles' were removeable...you put it on to load, took it back off out of the way to shoot.

 

[Myra lou]

Look for a renegade barrel with out QLA on e-bay....I've seen a few offered......john......