tang length

[Millsy]

I have been reading on the this site for a year and a half and have found the information and helpfulness to top notch. I have no experience with muzzleloaders but have decided to build one. I have started on an english fowler kit from Sitting fox and was interested in knowing what would be the appropriate tang length? The tang I have is 3.25" and needs to be cut.
Thanks again John

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is NO set length for your tang. The hole depends on whether you intend to simple use a wood screw to attach the tang to the wrist of the stock, or are going to run a bolt down through the stock and have it screw into the trigger plate. The later is not often seen on fowlers.

If you are using a wood screw, you first want to locate the position of the lock plate, on the stock, so that you can determine where the trigger and sear will meet. That Hole tends to be the rearward most hole in the lock mortise. You want the tang screw to be located BEHIND that mortise hole.

The rest of the decision concerning length depends on what kind of shape you want to make of the tang. Do you want the back of the Tang to be Flat, or round? Round is more common with later 19th century guns, but just about anything can be found on fowlers. I suggest that you consult some of the books on fowlers, or the article in The American Rifleman Magazine a couple or years ago, on Fowlers, to get a better idea what shape other makers are doing with their tangs. If you don't have access to thes, go to Track of the Wolf's site, and look at their archives of guns that they have sold on consignment. They have sold several fowlers over the years, and you can get some good ideas about proportions of parts by looking at the color photos, on line.

The tang on my fowler is 3 1/8" long from the rear of the barrel, to the back end of the tang. The back end of the tang is " flat", and square to the bore. The tang screw is a wood screw and is centered 2 inches behind the barrel.

 

[Mike Brooks]

There is NO set length for your tang. The hole depends on whether you intend to simple use a wood screw to attach the tang to the wrist of the stock, or are going to run a bolt down through the stock and have it screw into the trigger plate. The later is not often seen on fowlers.

That information is completely incorrect. :shake:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, Mr. Brooks. What have YOU got to add? :yakyak: :bow:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Well, Mr. Brooks. What have YOU got to add? :yakyak: :bow:

Every English fowler I've ever taken apart or seen, from the highest grade to the lowest had a tang screw in the 18th century. Every English fowler of the 18the century that I've seen has a thumbnail finial. It probably ought to be about 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" long, depending on what lock you're using.
A several page dissertation on information you're pulling out of thin air gets somewhat tedious after a while. :yakyak: :surrender:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mr. Brooks. I went through my copy of Tom Grnslade's book, Flintlock Fowlers, The First Guns Made in America, before I attempted to answer the man's question. The photos show a wide variation in tang lengths. There are NO measurements of the Tangs given, although measurements of most other parts of the guns are. I don't think Mr. Grinslade considered it all that important.

My tang looks similar to the Kentucky Fowler No. 15, found on page 214 of Grinslade's book. Since the author does not give any lengths for the tangs in his book, I won't speculate as to the length of the tang on this gun.

If you have another source of information that you can share with us, please do so. Telling the poster that I am wrong without offering corrective information sounds like a personal problem, that has no business on the board. :cursing: :hatsoff:

 

[Roy]

Paul,
I believe since Millsy is specifically asking about an English fowler that Mike's answer is appropriate. Now if he was asking about a Hudson Valley or New England fowler...Guns made in America... he would have been more out of line.
-Roy

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roy, I looked at ALL the pictures of English fowlers in the Grinslade book, and I didn't see any uniformity in either the length or style of the tangs. The only thing noted was the fact that the ones observed tended to have carving around the Tangs, indicating, most likely, IMHO, that these guns were ordered by and built for wealthy English Gentlemen. Considering the social standards of the time, this would be expected of such English Guns. Again, there does not appear to be any mention of the length of the tang for any of the guns in that book. The poster was asking specifically about the length of the tang.

My answer was my attempt to inform him that there was no uniformity, that there is no standard length, or shape to the tang, and that it appears from all the guns I have seen either in the book, or in my drooling over guns at Friendship, both on Commercial Row, and in the Gunmaker's Hall, that the tang relates to other parts of the gun for its length.

My Fowler was made in 2004, by a local gunmaker, who made an American Fowler, at the customer's request, incorporating influences from German, English, French, and early American designs in my gun. I am sure my gun would cause MIke Brooks to have a stroke if he saw it. After all, it has the lock on the wrong side, too!

Since the poster is making his own Fowler, I thought it was appropriate to offer the measurements off my own gun as a basic guide to him.

 

[Roy]

Paul,
Are you refering to the British style fowlers? These are guns that use British hardware from what I gather from Grinslade's book, not English fowlers (guns made in England) Now there is one that I can think of, with out going for the book in the front somewhere, of a English trade gun. We all know you mean well Paul, so please do not take this as a personal attack. :v
Roy

 

[Millsy]

Thanks for the imput guys. The tang I have was 3.25" and it seemed like it would extend down the wrist too far (it was even with the tail of the lock) if I wanted to carve around it so I shortened it to 2 5/8"
John

 

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for the imput guys. The tang I have was 3.25" and it seemed like it would extend down the wrist too far (it was even with the tail of the lock) if I wanted to carve around it so I shortened it to 2 5/8"
John

That's probably about right, depending on what lock you're using.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mr. Brooks. I went through my copy of Tom Grnslade's book, Flintlock Fowlers, The First Guns Made in America, before I attempted to answer the man's question. The photos show a wide variation in tang lengths. There are NO measurements of the Tangs given, although measurements of most other parts of the guns are. I don't think Mr. Grinslade considered it all that important.

My tang looks similar to the Kentucky Fowler No. 15, found on page 214 of Grinslade's book. Since the author does not give any lengths for the tangs in his book, I won't speculate as to the length of the tang on this gun.

If you have another source of information that you can share with us, please do so. Telling the poster that I am wrong without offering corrective information sounds like a personal problem, that has no business on the board. :cursing: :hatsoff:

I shouldn't have to explain this to you of all people since you're an expert on 18th century gun construction. Tang length depends on lock size because of where the sear bar is. This has a direct impact on trigger placement, which dictates where the trigger plate is and where the tang screw will be placed. Using the Golden Mean I usually place my tang screw 2/5's ahead of the rear finial if the architecture of the wrist will allow it's placement there. That is the location most pleasing to the eye. I have no personal problems that would keep me from explaining things like this other than a shortage of time for long winded discussion of what are for me common sense and trivial details.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mike: You would do Millsy a kindness if you explained the " Golden Mean", or at least refer him to a source of information on this important method of measuring and locating furniture on guns from the early 19th century. I don't think he would expect a full discourse on " The Golden Mean", but he may not be as familiar with the terminology of your last post as many of us are( I have to look up " Finial").

Roy: The Millsy specifically said:

" I have started on an english fowler kit....", not a " British Fowler kit". Since Grinslade discusses English Fowlers in his book, that is where I focused my references. I think if Millsy had intended to describe his kit as a " New England", or "Hudson Valley", or some other style of fowler, he would have said so.

Since Millsy reports that he has cut his tang to the length he likes, I am done here.

I find that many gun builders are very uneasy using just dividers to locate and " measure " gun parts and place furniture on stocks. We are all way to used to having good rulers. I suspect the 18th and 19th century builders would be laughing and shaking their heads at the amount of time we fuss with details, using our rulers.

 

[Roy]

Mr. Brooks. I went through my copy of Tom Grnslade's book, Flintlock Fowlers, The First Guns Made in America, before I attempted to answer the man's question. The photos show a wide variation in tang lengths.

I must have somehow missed that chapter on all of the English fowler pics...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roy: I owe you an apology. I finally got back to my book case, and looked at Grinslade's book again, He does refer to them as " British fowlers". and not as " English fowlers." I was wrong. Hey, you only had to hit me on the head twice- I'm having a better than average day!

thanks. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Roy]

:v :thumbsup:

 

[Millsy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to open a can of worms.

 

[Roy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to open a can of worms.

no need to be sorry, I was just a bit confused is all. :haha: :v

 

[Mike Brooks]

Golden Mean ...google it. I don't have time to define it here.
British fowlers and English fowlers are the same thing. England and Britain is the same place. Grinslade covers "BRITISH STYLED FOWLERS" These are American built guns with british style influence. They were mainly built in New York. They are different than a fowling gun built in england.

 

[Robert Egler]

England and Britain is the same place.

No, they're not.

For future reference, since you are fond of being precise, Britain is composed of the two kingdoms of England and Scotland, with the principality of Wales. England is one country in Britain. Saying they’re the same is similar to saying that the United States and Virginia are the same place.

They may be the same as far as the syle of fowlers (I couldn't say, and don't care), but they still aren't the same place.