• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

tap question for Zonie or...

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

matt denison

54 Cal.
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
1,786
Reaction score
14
Good ol' Zonie made a comment recently that he never breaks a tap. I believe him only 'cause I think he is smart - book smart too. So I have a question to pose to him and other members:

Let's say we are tapping mild steel as in lock plates.
Which is stronger and less likely to break,two flute, three flute or four flute? Which is stronger and less likely to break.

I've read that the four flute are supposed to be stronger but my work experience has proven that wrong. Again, in my experience. There's nothing more frustrating than busting a tap off in a tumbler or lock plate. Grrr. I now use three flute taps and have much better luck. ( I tap a LOT of holes, sometimes 40-80 in a day in different alloys)

Matt
 
Those of you who have never broken a tap are lucky! It's not a matter of if but when!
I've tapped thousands of holes from 1-14 down to 00-80.
I think that the condition of the tap has a lot to do with breakage. First carbon taps break eaisier than high speed steel taps but are eaisier to remove if broken. Dull taps break eaisier than sharp taps. Taps not started perfectly streight in the hole break eaisier that those started streight. Tapping holes without the propper thread cutting oil will not only dull taps but can cause breakage (motor oil is not thread cutting oil!) Attempting to cut to many threads without backing the tap to clear the chips can cause taps to break.
IMPORTED TAPS BREAK EAISIER THAN AMERICAN MADE TAPS!
With all that being said I usually use 4 flute HHS American made taps and Thread cutting oil.
 
Ol' Zonie doesn't have any special secrets he's keeping for himself.

When I'm tapping a hole I make good use of a LOT of thread cutting oil and I take my time.
If I were working in a production shop things would be different but I'm only tapping one or two holes and if it takes me 1/2 hour it isn't a big loss.

Keeping this in mind, if I feel the tap starting to give me any real resistance I back it out 1/2 turn, add a few drops of oil and then thread the next half turn or so depending (again) on the resistance I'm feeling.

I also realize that taps are VERY HARD which makes them VERY brittle. Any side load at all applied to the tap wrench can snap a tap off.
The only time I actually try to guide a tap is when I'm starting the first thread or so. After that, I let the tap decide where it is going.

As for the number of flutes, I have both 3 and 4 flute taps. I think the 3 flute taps are a little stronger but not much. They usually have larger flutes which removes a lot of the extra material in their bodies that could have been left there for strength had they been made with the same sized flutes that the typical 4 flute tap has.

The reason for increasing the flute size is to keep the width of the threaded surface about the same as the 4 flute tap. By making the flutes larger they can hold more chips before they pack up which is important to production shops and it allows more coolant/lube to flow down thru the flutes as well as accommodating the amount of chips that are made when threading deeper holes.

By keeping the threaded width of the lands narrow there is also less of a tendency for the newly cut, unlubricated metal behind the cutting edge to "drag" on the threads of the tap.
If left to drag on the threaded area of the tap it would create a need for more torque to be applied to the tap and increased torque is one of the things that can break the tap.

By the way, the Titanium Nitride and Titanium/aluminum nitride coated taps are often used in industry because the coatings resist wear. They do have the added benefit of preventing the parent material from welding itself to the threads of the tap as it's cutting but with a little extra thread cutting oil this isn't a major improvement for the average gun builder. It may be a great asset to a production shop where speed is everything but at my rate of production I think I'll just use the price difference to buy an extra uncoated tap. :grin:
 
All of my many taps are "leftover" from my toolmaking days and 90% are 2 fluted. In the toolroom we had drill presses w/ reverse buttons and the holes were tapped under power. Presently start the tap by turning on the drill press, shutting off and while the spindle is coasting, enter the tap into the hole. Unchuck the tap and finish in the bench vise. A couple of the main reasons for tap breakage is trying to straighten the angled tap and not breaking the chip by reversing the tap often enough. I use regular machine oil for tapping and haven't had a problem....probably because of the mild steel found in MLer parts. The last tap I broke was when I was an apprentice and was thinking of my new girl friend instead of the task at hand....Fred
 
Two flute taps work best for me but I can't find them locally, so I end up useing crappy four flute taps made in china..... :shake:
 
2 Flute Spiral tap from MSC. They will cut better, last longer, & not break as easy as the 3 & 4 flute ones. I bought 4 each of the 6-32, 8-32, 10-32 about 4 years ago & am still using the initial one of each size, having taped MANY holes with them & more than any other taps I have ever used. Much stronger taps then the 3 & 4 fluted ones, IMHO.

Course, I do have a friend that can break Any tap in Any hole... I guess it is his community job to do that... he breaks them, I get them out..... someone has to do it..... :shake:

He brought over a cylinder head one day with a tap broken off in it. He had taken a 3/8" tap & drove a nut on the end so he could put an impact air wrench on it. Said it went real well with all the thru holes & snapped right off on the one the hole didn't go thru. :slap: That was about the 20th one he had brought me & the last one. I took it out & told him for now on it was $ 25. to get one out. He has not brought me any more. Enough is enough..... :idunno:

Keith Lisle
 
I think the MSC catalog states that spiral taps are for ductile material - plastics, brass, and I can imagine that they would have a lot of drag vs. a standard fluted tap. Only guessing here. I do not buy "import" taps anymore. The last bunch I had in the tap drawer I ceremoniously dropped into the garbage can and said, "there, nobody will ever break one of those sons of a b***** in this shop now". The savings on a dozen imports does not add up to the cost of a ruined lock plate.

As for a production shop, I've learned to approach each part as an individual. Got 20 tumblers to tap? So what, take them as individual parts and think "this is the most important thing that I have to do today" then do the next one with the same thought process. Spending a few extra seconds tapping a hole is much more efficient use of time than trying to remove a broken tap. You end up with better parts that way too.
 
The best way to break taps is to carry on a conversation with someone while tapping, no matter where the tap is manufactured.
 
I have used mostly 2 fluted taps over the years. The problem with 4-fluted taps is that the flute have to be smaller, and therefore move a smaller volume of chips, before they begin to add pressure to the turning of the tap.

If you use your fingertips on a tap handle, you can FEEL the resistance when a tap is starting to bind. STOP! Back that tap out to break out the chips. Back the tap all the way back out and brush the flutes clear, and the teeth clean. Then oil both the tap threads, and the existing hole in which you are running the tap before trying again.

I found, in shop class, that too many guys were INSISTING on taking a full 1/2 turn with the tap each time, whether they felt resistance or not. Invariably these were the guys breaking taps. They would watch me, and question me why I stopped turning the tap at 1/4 or 1/3 or some other turn less than 180 degrees, and seemed surprised that I stopped because I began feeling resistance. :shocked2:

Like Zonie, I am not in production mode, so I take my time to do it right, and protect the tools I am using. If you think taking a few extra minutes to tap a hole in a lock plate is frustrating, think how much MORE time it takes to get that broken tap OUT, and then find a replacement! :shocked2: :idunno: :idunno: :nono: :surrender: :hmm:

I am also painfully aware of how long it takes to put a good edge back on sharp tools, like knives and chisels. While I have never been set up to resharpen taps, ( and don't want to be), I can't imagine the PITA it must take to sharpen or make these taps, if you had to do it by hand.(18th Century Gunmakers made their own taps using files, and then a "Drill Plate", which they often considered to be the most needed tool, right behind their anvil, hammers and swage block.)

Along these lines, I once made 144 Square-shaped nuts for a friend's 6 lb. cannon, cutting the square stock on a bandsaw, then center punching them, drilling them, and then tapping all 144 "nuts". It took a whole evening , and Ray was thrilled that I got them all done so quickly, and managed to NOT break a tap, doing it. In fact, he watched me tap several of the nuts to see how I managed Not to break a tap, as he had broken a tap for about every hole he had threaded on his own.

Once you have that experience, running by a hardware store, and buying nuts for a few cents a piece seems VERY CHEAP!

I bought a couple of taps that have 4 flutes, but these are in large diameters,(1/2" & 5/8") so that the flutes remain large enough to move the chips freely. I bought them to use for tapping wood base plugs for screw in stoppers, and, possibly, to thread the inside of the mouth of horn tips to fit on a threaded powder horn mouth. I have never gotten to this last item, but its on my list to try to do. I have the matching dies for doing the male threads. These, of course, are much softer materials than steel. :hmm:
 
IF you can find them, taps for automatic tapping machines can be run in without reversing until the hole is tapped and you have to take it out. These taps have a special grind it the tip of the tap which pushes the chip ahead of the tap instead of loading up the hole and binding. They can be run in and out with a reversible hand drill, but you must use cutting oil and they will break if you don't keep them perfectly straight.
For most work, it's best to just stick with regular hand taps.

Paul
 
laffindog,

I couldn't begin to tell ya what materials those taps are made to tap, as I didn't ask. I called MSC & told them what I am tapping & bought what they recommended. All I know is they work for me.

After looking at them, they are not spiral, they are just 2 fluted.

DSC00149.jpg



Keith Lisle
 
I don't recognise that critter. It does look stout though. Next time I call in an order I'll try a couple of those. Thanks.
 
I've tapped a lot of holes in many types of material. Sticky material like ofhc copper and ampco bronze are two really pita materials to tap.

Iuse 2 flute HSS spiral tip 95% of the time. I try to stay away from carbon or 4 flute taps in samll holes. 4 flute taps have less room in the flute for chips to accumulate. Yes there are more flutes but chip build up breaks taps. So do all the other things mentioned above.

I used to have to endure a student shop next to our main shop. I've seen more ways to break taps and other tooling than most guys {thats another story} but not breaking the chip {especially in blind holes} or no lubrication are probably the most common errors. 2 flute spiral taps give you a little edge and strength up to about 3/8 or 7/16" dia.
 
By the way that picture is a spiral point. Not to be confused with a spiral flute.
 
Well, some times I think things & then later when I think again on it, I don't remember for sure. I thought the guy told me spiral, but then when questioned I looked in the MSC book & got as confused as I originally was, just w a y too many types in there for this ol feller........ so just took a photo of the tap.

I do know the work well for me & I also tap my SS range rods with them. When i build a rifle I usually offer them a maint. Kit that includes some things needed to clean & maintain the rifle, and in that kit is a SS range rod & I tap the hole in it with those taps & they SS is hard to tap.

Keith Lisle
 
Ahhhg! Now we're talking about:
1. spiral point
2. spiral tip
3. spiral flute

I know what the spiral fluted taps are. Are #1 & 2 the same thing?
 
Spiral point pushes the chips down, thru hole
Spiral flute lifts chips up, blind hole
 
laffindog, dont let it confuse you. I will say 1 and 2 are the same. Problem is for some things in the industry, there may or may not be a standard description(drill bits are the absolute worst)I am a tool and cutter grinder by trade, and deal with tool descriptions, clearance angles,tool prints, etc everyday.One thing I dont think anyone has mentioned is that the correct tap drill MUST be used or there is risk of breakage ("close enough" IS NOT ok). Then comes trueness or alignment of the tap to the drilled hole, lubrication,and so on.Taps are actually fairly easy to re-sharpen ( speaking in modern terms and epuipment).
 
Back
Top