TC Hawken

[bwhoffman]

If one were to desiminate all the info above, past experience of others using like guns and such, it all boils down to what works for you, gives you the results you are after and are satisfied with.

Myself, I want accuracy and repeatabilty.
I know where my gun will hit with a certain volume of powder and have enough trigger time behind me to know where to hold on target.

Some have critisized me before ona .58 I picked up. it shoots great using 55-60 gr of powder. many feel to hunt with it, I should use 110gr.
My results suit me and my hold from 25 to 75 yds is not hard to replicate time and again.
the balls goes where intended.

Bottom line here is what fulfills YOUR desires and what works for you.

You will always get both sides of an argument on this site, good info all the same,but it is up to you to decipher it and apply it to your application!

In so far as your original question that read " what is a good starting charge and maximum charge",
I find that max is not always the best, as groups tend to open up and acuraccy becomes an issue.

just my unwarranted 2 cents worth!

 

[paulvallandigham]

Biggs: REad more carefully: You are quoting Roundball, NOT my representation. You will Not find any reference by me to this being the MAXIMUM load. Rather the Davenport formula gives the maximum EFFICIENT LOAD. I have explained what that means, using T/C's own table. Bill Martin( Billnpatti) has explained it in English, and given you a 19th century reference to read.

Once you pass the Max. Efficient powder charge, you are burning powder, or just pushing powder out the barrel. The Added Pressure caused by the additional weight of the powder over your Max. efficient load will increase velocity, as shown. But it also adds recoil, which works against accuracy. And, as I have already discussed, it also creates problems with the ball/bullet's release at the muzzle.

If the crown is NOT perfectly round, or if the bullet is damaged on a bottom edge when being loaded, the more pressure against the base of the bullet at the moment of "release", the more the ball/bullet will fish tail, or yaw off line of aim. The latest tweak for target shooters is to give their muzzle crowns a 11 degree chamfer, to allow the gases to escape evenly all around the circumference of the bullet's base.

If you read about Harry Pope- the famous 19th century Barrel maker and target shooter-- you will find that he spent most of his life trying to maximize the squareness of the base of his bullets to the bore, using false muzzles to load, but casting different designs of bullets, and experimenting with different lubes, and paper patches. He continued to load his bullets down the muzzle on his breech loading rifles.

What he didn't do was waste his time trying to send a .50 caliber lead bullet out his barrel at over 2,000 fps. THAT is what I mean by " tilting at Windmills". Its a reference to the famous novel titled, " Don Quixote de la Mancha" by Miguel de Cervantes.

Most lead bullets will begin to misform, and shed lead, even when made of alloys, at about 1600-1900 fps. Paper Patching prevented these bullets from loading up the grooves of barrels with this lead, but the "Set-back" of the soft lead bullets and alloyed bullets, cause by too much velocity, affected adversely the accuracy that could be achieved at long ranges.

At short ranges, you could load up some of these guns so that the bullet didn't come down into the transonic zone before hitting the target. But, the recoil of any rifle trying to shoot a bullet fast enough to stay above the transonic zone at 200 yds was too much, no matter how heavy the gun. It could be done with small caliber guns, but accuracy suffered with any kind of wind at all affecting these lighter bullets.

It was not until the Smokeless powder era began, and we finally had small caliber bullets made with copper jackets, to control their shape, and handle the higher velocities and chamber pressures of these faster burning and higher pressure powders that shooter finally solved the accuracy problems out at long ranges( 200 yd.+) :thumbsup:

 

[ebiggs1]

Your discourse still fails to answer the points I made in my reply, which was:

I do know the 60 to 70 gr loads has NOT proved to be the most accurate load in the rifle I am testing right now, a TC 50 cal Hawken. How can you possibly say with any certainly 11.5 grs of whatever is max? Suppose I switch brands of powder, say Swiss for instance? I do have many years of reloading center fire guns and know there is more to an efficient load than powder.

And:

If no one ever needs a charge greater than 11.5 grs per inch, why don’t any of the loading manuals say so? I know TC’s doesn’t, I know Lyman doesn’t and Pedersoli doesn’t? Unless I missed it somewhere, which is possible.

Still:

I have looked at several folks “favorite” load and it seems somewhere around 70 grs is a popular charge. Whether 3f or 2f but the barrel lengths are very much dissimilar. They being anywhere from 26” to 44”. They must not be shooting the most accurate load, or are they?


If all one has to do is read someone’s book for specifics, why should I test my guns at all? I already know 71 ½ grs is going to be the only load that will shoot straight?

Funny:

“So, stop wasting your energy tilting at windmills!”

I have played the bass trombone part in the musical “Man of La Mancha” many times and have never heard that old idiom. Pardon me, I never read the book. You are not tilting at windmills if you believe!

 

[bigted]

:idunno: wow fellas, the guy just wanted a starting place.

50 gr of 2-f to start. experiment experiment experiment. shoot shoot shoot. MOSTLY HAVE FUN AND WHEN IT GETS FRUSTRATING...ASK QUESTIONS.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Tweaking we do with basic loading information, Like the Davenport formula has to do with all the other variables that affect a particular rifle's accuracy. They include, among others, The actual bore diameter, the groove depth and diameter, the width of the lands and grooves, the condition of the bore for each shot, the width of the barrel across the flats, the kind of rifling used- square, round-bottomed, beveled, etc.- The ball diameter, the patch thickness, the kind of lube chosen, the condition of the fabric, and its thread counts. Then, we get into different loading and cleaning technique as they affect the condition of all those other items, and change barrel harmonics. Finally, we add in the human element of shooting form.

Obviously, if you happen to shoot a nice 5 or 10 shot group with one load, you are probably being consistent with a lot of these human and loading factors. But, if you aren't getting just as good groups with other loads, that doesn't mean the loads are bad. It might be that you are doing something different, in your loading, and cleaning procedures. You may be tiring, or there can be a change in weather conditions that affect the performance of a load. The Chunk gun shooters are allowed to use "Shaders" so that the lighting conditions are pretty much the same during the long matches. Most of us don't have such things covering our open sights, so changes in the light as it strikes your front sight can open a group.

This frustration is also part of the fun of shooting BP guns. When you do "conquer" all the variables, there is a true sense of accomplishments, and joy.

If you were a Bass trombone player, you can't be all bad. I was a solo first trombone player most of the 10 years I played the instrument. I never played Bass trombone, but did have a chance to play another guy's Valve Trombone one summer. :grin:

 

[Swampman]

Nobody over thinks things more than shooters.

 

[sunbear209]

Well, today I took my Hawken out and shot from the bench. I held at 6 o'clock, with a white paper plate as my target. The distance was 50 yds. I got a 5 shot group of 2.87". I was shooting a Speer .490" round ball, ox yoke .015 shooting patch with Bore Butter and 55 grains of FFFg Goex black powder.
Not knowing anything about how a black powder rifle groups, how is this? I guess it is not an MOA rifle with this load, hahaha!! I was happy that it grouped! Have a great day all!

 

[roundball]

I just prefer facts:

So once again, here is but one example of the facts that continue to disprove the theory about 71grns being the maximum in a 31" barrel:

05/26/08
VELOCITY TESTS - .45cal Flintlock
T/C .45cal 15/16” x 31” Flint barrel
1:66” round ball twist
.018" T/C NL1000 pillow ticking
Hornady .440 balls
Wiped the bore after every shot
Pact Pro MK5 Chronograph at 15 feet
Goex 3F powder charges
Average velocity rounded off to nearest 5 fps

70grns = 1590 fps
80grns = 1720 fps
90grns = 1805 fps
100grns = 1870 fps [/color]

 

[sunbear209]

So, is a 2.87" 50 yd 5 shot group decent, or should it be better?

 

[PreglerD]

So, is a 2.87" 50 yd 5 shot group decent, or should it be better?

Hi sunbear209!

From the bench it is average grouping, it must be a bit closer normally, about 1.5". So try on!

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[sunbear209]

I will keep experimenting and working at it, thank you for responding! Good day!

 

[BrownBear]

I will keep experimenting and working at it, thank you for responding! Good day!

I'm speaking only from personal experience, but when it comes to shrinking a 2.5" group to 1.5", fine tuning my shooting methods is often more effective than fine tuning a load. Most of the inconsistency is coming from the butt of the gun rather than from the bore.

Not saying that is happening to you, but as you study your loading techniques, it's probably worthwhile seeing what you can do for an extra measure of precision in shooting. We're talking about tiny adjustments here. In my case, poor follow-through is the usual culprit in spreading groups.

 

[sunbear209]

I will certainly work on that as well. This rifle is a lot different than my Anschutz and M1, which shoot small groups.

 

[mjones1579]

Nobody over thinks things more than shooters.

Nope Mark it's golfers. Well, round ball is a round ball.

 

[lonehunter]

So, is a 2.87" 50 yd 5 shot group decent, or should it be better?

Only you can answer that! It is good enough for some, and not good enough for others, it depends on what you expect from your rifle!
2.87 in at 50 yards is 5 3/4 inches at 100 yards.
I say keep tweaking, that is where the fun is anyway! :v

 

[sunbear209]

I am never satisfied, hahaha. I am not new to shooting, but I am new to black powder shooting. I do not know the capabilities of the TC Hawken. I will keep working at it.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I am never satisfied, hahaha. I am not new to shooting, but I am new to black powder shooting. I do not know the capabilities of the TC Hawken. I will keep working at it.

Cutting a playing card in half at 25 yards (when shooting at just the edge) starts to get you there! These "Tweeners" (48 twist Hawken-style rifles) are VERY accurate! The trick is finding out what YOUR rifle likes :wink:

Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

My biggest improvement in shooting Off-hand, was in correcting my footwork, so that the gun recoiled at Right angles to my shoulder's pocket, rather than going left or right. That helped me "follow through" the shot, and reduced my off-hand groups.

Then, when I went back to the bench to test some new patches, I found that I also had to change how I sat at the bench, so that my shoulder was square to the butt of the gun and the line of the barrel. Otherwise, the gun would recoil upward and right or left off the rest and my forehand. With in consistent follow through, the groups opened up( altho they were smaller shooting from a rest, compared to the off-hand groups.)

Only when I found the correct position that allowed the gun to recoil straight UP, and come straight Back down to the rest did I begin to get truly consistent groups.

I have demonstrated card cutting for years, but never as far away as 25 yards. Audiences, behind the firing line, and loading benches simply can't see what the heck you are shooting at with the card put that far away from them. So, for demonstrations, the card is held on a stick that is placed 10-15 yds in front of the shooters.

I have snuffed candle flames out at about 20 yards, so I think I could probably cut playing cards out there,too. Its all a matter of footwork, and timing the shot. Most shooters never give their foot placement any thought at all. :thumbsup: