The .58 muskets as hunting rifles?

[BillinOregon]

I realize these were in use toward the end of our era, when the sports who could afford them were buying breechloaders. But I suspect many a surplused Springfield, Enfield or Harpers Ferry got a livery stable sporter job and ended its days bringing home haunches of elk, bear, bison and protecting the farm.
That's why I think a Zouave or Enfield might make a good candidate for an elk rifle. I can't imagine an elk that could stand up to a decently placed minie within 125 yards or so.
Anyone out there hunting with a Mississippi, or an 1855, or an 1853/56/58/61 or an 1861 Springfield? Are you using them on game heavier than deer? What has been your experience? What would be your "pick of the litter" for hunting rugged terrain for elk?

 

[54ball]

The president of my hunting club uses a Springfield Sprorter by H&R. Its of 70's manufacture. Its' basicly a sporterized version of the 1861 Springfield. I quess you could call it a musketoon or carbine. It has taken many deer. Consider this about CW rifles. They are the zenith of muzzleloading rifles like the P51D and F4U Corsair are to piston engine fighterplanes. Look at em for a second, musket caps, a heavy easy loading conical, and an effective range of 300 yards {on the battlefield not elk hunting}. The CW rifled musket in .58 firing the minnie wrought destruction comparible to the Maxim and Vickers machine guns in the killing fields of WW1 France. Civil War surplus rifles were used on the frontier in large numbers. They are not as glamorous as the puny .44 Henry Flat, 44/40 firing lever actions or high dollar Sharps rifles. IMHO ML guns of all types from long rifles to CW surplus won the west with shotguns and old muskets being the most common. I would use a full size Enfield or Springfeild to hunt Elk. Remember that minnie can work its way back up the barrell if the muzzle is down. A PRB would be fine . Go no smaller than .54 like in the 1841 Mississippi. :grey:

 

[RedFeather]

"Dr" Sam Fadala called the rifled musket the most under-rated muzzle loader for hunting. It will take just about all North American game. (Wouldn't use it on big grizzlies or Kodiaks.) Do try the round ball. Some of the Italians like my circa 1972 Zouave have a slow twist of 1-72" and do better with the ball than the Minnie. Maybe the perfect big game gun would be the Parker Hale volunteer rifle in .451. The rapid twist gives the equivalent to a 45-90. More than enough for most jobs, but pricey at around $700-$800. Plus, since you can't hunt every day, muskets are a lot of fun to shoot.

RedFeather

 

[Gary]

I'll agree that the .58 caliber minie rifle is about the best you can get for bp hunting. It's got plenty of lead behind it (over 500 grains) and destroys any bone it contacts (read any Civil War journal or diary where wounds are described). If it does it to man, it can do it to game. Unlike specialized rifles like the Whitworth, Volunteer or target gun, they minie rifle is quick to load too. The undersized minie drops right down the bore and you don't have to be fussy about positioning it just right like you would with a paper patched target gun. :blue: :grey:

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

I've often thought that the Volunteer would be a great rifle for hunting elk here in Colorado, but it's illegal. The regs state that the bullet cannot exceed twice the bore diameter. Go figure! "Course, a .58 minie of 500 grains or so will ruin just about any critter's day.

If you do hunt with a musket, develop the habit of seating the bullet from time to time as you hunt. As mentioned above, they will work forward off the powder charge if carried muzzle down. It even happens with T/C Maxis, which fit pretty tight.

 

[BillinOregon]

Scattershot: I think the Oregon and Colorado fish and game guys had beers together when they worked out the rules. A Volunteer or Whitworth would not be legal for elk in Oregon either, as minimum caliber for elk here is .50, and the projectile cannot be more than twice bore diameter in length. So a 550-grain slug at 1300 out of a Volunteer is no-go for elk, but a .50 round ball is. I don't get it.
That's why I like the idea of a thick-skirted .58 minie like the Lyman 577611 at about 1200.

 

[OTHERN]

The reason for the length limit is to keep the ballistic coefficient down. Longer length generally equals better coefficient so better long range ballistics. A Lee REAL bullet in a 58 would be legal.

Othern

 

[Slamfire]

Wasn't Navy Arms' Buffalo Hunter just a half stocked version of their Civil War Replica? eace:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It is a modified Zouave rifle. They still offer it, only now it will set you back almost $700.00.

 

[Rebel]

$700, why that's highway robbery. Why right here in my 1974 copy of the Guns & Ammo Complete Guide To BlackPowder it lists for $150. ::

 

[BillinOregon]

Several years ago, I bought some odds and ends from the late Val Forgett, including a left-over Buffalo Hunter barrel from "down in the basement." Turned out to be one of the 20-gauge smoothbore barrels that Navy once offered as an accessory to the Buffalo Hunter.
Val told me in an e-mail that it was indeed built on their Zouave, and assume it was built then by Zoli, but can't say for sure.
I don't know how many times I have read his story on the African hunt in the Lyman handbook.
Good and inspiring stuff still.
Think I would rather buy a new Zouave and whittle it down myself than pay seven bills for a new one.

 

[Rebel]

Yea, or pick one up on one of the auctions and then cut it down. I have seen a few go for under $300.

 

.58 minnie will put a deer down RIGHT NOW. It is designed for a sngle purpose--dropping your target in its track at distance. We had a friend out west who regularly dumped mule deer, elk, bear and a moose with a .58 zouave using minnies.

They work very well. The one doe that I shot with mine when straight to the ground and didn't argue about it one bit, and that was just shy of 100 yards when I paced it off.

 

[RedFeather]

I agree. The Buffalo Hunters are way over-priced and were, indeed, a sporterized Zouave. They come up occasionally, but the new price will surely drive up the old ones. My 1972 NA Zouave is by Antonio Zoli, so the Hunters must have been from the same shop. It would be easy to duplicate one from a number of muskets and would be perod-correct for the post-Civil War West. I believe that many a surplus sporter went West on the wagon trains, more so than Hawkens.

 

[BS]

NAVY ARMS "BUFFALO HUNTER" RETURNS (Not Shown)
The most famous single shot muzzle loading rifle Navy Arms has ever built, the Buffalo Hunter, is back in production. This .58 caliber muzzle loading rifle was used by Navy Arms founder, Val Forgett, Sr., to take the African

 

[CoyoteJoe]

When Kit Carson was asked what weapon he recomended for immigrants crossing the plains and mountains, (IMMIGRANTS!!!) ::--he said there was no better rifle than the 1841 "mississippi".
The full size muskets do tend to be a bit heavy but are very sturdy and reliable. I too would recomend patched roundball. The standard load behind a minie runs only about 900fps and while it will certainly kill, the trajectory is pretty poor. If you can get accuracy with heavier charges (big IF) then recoil of the minie becomes considerable.
A patched ball over 100gr FFg will run about 1300fps without excessive recoil, shoots a lot flater to 100 yards, is usually much easier to get it to shoot accurately and will still dump anything with one well placed shot. Also eliminates the bullet movement problem others have mentioned.
I also like the looks and handling of the buffalohunter but they used to come with the flimsiest wooden ramrod I ever saw, hopefully they've gone to steel or fiberglass.
:m2c:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Now ain't that silly? They were drinkin' something stronger than beer I'd say. It is truly amazing to see the damage wrought by a 560 slug out of a Whitworth on a deer, especially at close range. Overkill? You bet! I haven't hunted with mine since '94, but she's going back into the woods this year. Ah, the way she caresses my shoulder like a head-on with a Mack truck.

 

[Tumblernotch]

A full length rifle musket is actually lighter than a rifle such as the Zouave, Mississippi and the '55 Harper's Ferry. The barrels on the rifles are 7" shorter than the Springfield rifle musket and 6" shorter than the Enfield, but much thicker walled. Now, some of the new muskets are heavier than the specs called for in the originals because the stocks on many are thicker. Also, most of the original guns are lighter than they used to be because what moisture was in the stocks when they were built is gone now.
:grey:

 

[robinghewitt]

But I suspect many a surplused Springfield, Enfield or Harpers Ferry got a livery stable sporter job and ended its days bringing home haunches of elk, bear, bison and protecting the farm.

If you look at the gun auctions to see what's left of the rifles they brought home from the war, it seems the first thing they did was cut the rifling out, saw the stock off short and add a rib to make a half stocked shotgun.

I know it's not what we'd do, but we ain't them ::

 

[BS]

I kind of like the 1858 2-Band Enfield because the rear sight is farther down the barrel than on a Zouave. A friend had one of the carbines and always complained about the 'kick'[not sure the model]

Time is ticking away!