Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
If you want some of the finest Quillwork and:imo: period...get in touch with Nancy Funicello at
http://www.ancientartways.com/
She even works for the Smithsonian restoring their work. :redthumb:
http://www.ancientartways.com/
She even works for the Smithsonian restoring their work. :redthumb:
Guest
Stumpkiller,
Thanks. I checked out the link and there is a nice selection of books.
Captchee,
I sent you a PM and thanks for your info and photos. Very impressive needless to say. I have also checked out the links in your post.
Tipis,
Thanks for your info and photos. You have done some outstanding work and research too.
We got to see our first real Native American dances in Red Wing, MN last month. I can't believe the work that goes into those dresses and the men's outfits. We were inspired by what we saw. We have been to a few other Native American events but nothing like this one.
It is overwhelming enough to get into this hobby/interest and try to keep the white man's stuff straight, but trying to learn the location, culture, dress and styles of the Indian Nations is very tough on this old brain.
We are not serious reenactors but want to appear ligitimate. Here is what it comes down to, if my wife chooses to portray an Indian squaw (she already has a collection of clothing and other items but she may not be able to use all of it because of conflicts) we need to make sure that what she is wearing is accurate for the Nation she would have come from. We need to learn which Nations would have been the friendliest to the white's in the early 1800s and pick one to learn about so she can be consistant.
If she decides not to go with that whole concept, can we simply display items from various Nations in our camp at a rendezvous without looking very wrong to those who know the most about these things?
In either case, she wants to learn about Indian bead work and has just borrowed several books from the library and one on leather making for me. She is going to a class tomorrow in LaCrosse, Wi to learn about making Indian earings but does not know what Nation the style is from as of yet. She is hoping that the books will give her that info if the person running the class does not really know. Native American is such a broad term and really tells me very little about the person or ancestry.
I would like to know how the bead work was displayed when not used on clothing and what it meant. It would be nice to create something that has a purpose and meaning as well as being from the time frame we are interested in.
I have seen Sue Miller's tipi and her award winning bead work. Unfortunately, I can't remember the Nation that she emulates but they are the one's who gave her these awards. She will not be back in MN in Oct because her and Cousin Dave (silversmith) are now involved in something down in Illinois at the same time our rendezvous is. But to see her bead work close up is very different from a photo. As I am sure both Captchee's and Tipi's are.
Thanks to all for trying to help us sort this out.
:thumbsup:
Thanks. I checked out the link and there is a nice selection of books.
Captchee,
I sent you a PM and thanks for your info and photos. Very impressive needless to say. I have also checked out the links in your post.
Tipis,
Thanks for your info and photos. You have done some outstanding work and research too.
We got to see our first real Native American dances in Red Wing, MN last month. I can't believe the work that goes into those dresses and the men's outfits. We were inspired by what we saw. We have been to a few other Native American events but nothing like this one.
It is overwhelming enough to get into this hobby/interest and try to keep the white man's stuff straight, but trying to learn the location, culture, dress and styles of the Indian Nations is very tough on this old brain.
We are not serious reenactors but want to appear ligitimate. Here is what it comes down to, if my wife chooses to portray an Indian squaw (she already has a collection of clothing and other items but she may not be able to use all of it because of conflicts) we need to make sure that what she is wearing is accurate for the Nation she would have come from. We need to learn which Nations would have been the friendliest to the white's in the early 1800s and pick one to learn about so she can be consistant.
If she decides not to go with that whole concept, can we simply display items from various Nations in our camp at a rendezvous without looking very wrong to those who know the most about these things?
In either case, she wants to learn about Indian bead work and has just borrowed several books from the library and one on leather making for me. She is going to a class tomorrow in LaCrosse, Wi to learn about making Indian earings but does not know what Nation the style is from as of yet. She is hoping that the books will give her that info if the person running the class does not really know. Native American is such a broad term and really tells me very little about the person or ancestry.
I would like to know how the bead work was displayed when not used on clothing and what it meant. It would be nice to create something that has a purpose and meaning as well as being from the time frame we are interested in.
I have seen Sue Miller's tipi and her award winning bead work. Unfortunately, I can't remember the Nation that she emulates but they are the one's who gave her these awards. She will not be back in MN in Oct because her and Cousin Dave (silversmith) are now involved in something down in Illinois at the same time our rendezvous is. But to see her bead work close up is very different from a photo. As I am sure both Captchee's and Tipi's are.
Thanks to all for trying to help us sort this out.
:thumbsup:
Before you go out taking classes on material culture and spending money you may regret, first decide what time period and part of the country you are wanting to emulate. Powwows have nothing to do with the 1800-1850s', not even the clothing is the same. It is hard to recomend without a more destinct time period and tribe. :m2c:
I have been into the Colonial, Western Rendezvous and Native American Dances for over 40 something years. There is a saying I have...."if it is made of fur, feather, leather or beads...some dumb buckskinner thinks it's leagal".
Case in point, Dream Catchers, they are not Old Indian material. This is something that got started around the 1960s by traders as a good tourist item along with the infamous Mandellas.Those funny fury shield looking things. There is one exception to this, the Great Lakes area where there is a tradition of the Spider web. These never happened in real life. I have worked in and researched many museums around the country, as well as talking to the old ones out WEst, and Native American Culture evolves just as we do with ours.
There are no real good beadworking books for Period beadwork, only good books on how to do different styles of beadwork. What we see today at most events is Reservation Period material.....sorry to step on some toes here, but even the so called War shirt falls into this catagory. Most of these shirts or the historical shirts were society shirts, ceremonial shirts and honour shirts. They were not realy referred to as War Shirts...and did not have scalps on them. The hair shirts were a sign of respect because people willingly gave their hair to honour that person. I know of several people who have done extensive research into this area. If you could see the library of material that I am prevy too??? :what:
Anyway...I am going to catch hell on this site....but I am trying to get you to stop....before you leap. There is one very good book that has come out in recent weeks on Women's dress of the fur trade and later period for the Indian look.
Crazy Crow is selling this...
19th. Century Plains Indian Dresses by Susan Jennys
She is a great writer and this took 6 or more years to get out to the public. It is the only good book of its type on the market.
Also the Fur Trade Women's site is an excellent example of clothing you can look at and download.
If you want to look like everyone else who just likes to campout...do your own Hollywood thing. If you want to look like you know what you are doing...do more research. There are some good people out there who have some knowledge you can use. :results: AND SAVE You money!!!!
I have been into the Colonial, Western Rendezvous and Native American Dances for over 40 something years. There is a saying I have...."if it is made of fur, feather, leather or beads...some dumb buckskinner thinks it's leagal".
Case in point, Dream Catchers, they are not Old Indian material. This is something that got started around the 1960s by traders as a good tourist item along with the infamous Mandellas.Those funny fury shield looking things. There is one exception to this, the Great Lakes area where there is a tradition of the Spider web. These never happened in real life. I have worked in and researched many museums around the country, as well as talking to the old ones out WEst, and Native American Culture evolves just as we do with ours.
There are no real good beadworking books for Period beadwork, only good books on how to do different styles of beadwork. What we see today at most events is Reservation Period material.....sorry to step on some toes here, but even the so called War shirt falls into this catagory. Most of these shirts or the historical shirts were society shirts, ceremonial shirts and honour shirts. They were not realy referred to as War Shirts...and did not have scalps on them. The hair shirts were a sign of respect because people willingly gave their hair to honour that person. I know of several people who have done extensive research into this area. If you could see the library of material that I am prevy too??? :what:
Anyway...I am going to catch hell on this site....but I am trying to get you to stop....before you leap. There is one very good book that has come out in recent weeks on Women's dress of the fur trade and later period for the Indian look.
Crazy Crow is selling this...
19th. Century Plains Indian Dresses by Susan Jennys
She is a great writer and this took 6 or more years to get out to the public. It is the only good book of its type on the market.
Also the Fur Trade Women's site is an excellent example of clothing you can look at and download.
If you want to look like everyone else who just likes to campout...do your own Hollywood thing. If you want to look like you know what you are doing...do more research. There are some good people out there who have some knowledge you can use. :results: AND SAVE You money!!!!
Guest
mmmmmm well tipis is right. There are many, many things that are Hollywood. Long Fringe is one of them as tipis pointed out in a previous post. White brain tan is another , while it is correct it was used mostly for special times / good clothes every day ware would have been of a much darker color and many cases depending on the time, cloth.
todays chemical tanned leather is also not right . . Medicine wheels like that one in my picture is also not correct for my people at any time while it would not be uncommon for other nations, We the taslagi never had them nor did we use them . thats not to say many other nations did not use them
Most if not all POWWOW style clothes you will find are also wrong with the exceptions of some traditional like grass dancers or eagle dances and then even some of their dress is later dated . Now dont get me wrong many of the clothes have a traditional base but it takes a knowlagable person to see it many times.
I would also point out that the use of the term you have used for a native women should not be used as in most cases its taken as an insult . Some will say that that
todays chemical tanned leather is also not right . . Medicine wheels like that one in my picture is also not correct for my people at any time while it would not be uncommon for other nations, We the taslagi never had them nor did we use them . thats not to say many other nations did not use them
Most if not all POWWOW style clothes you will find are also wrong with the exceptions of some traditional like grass dancers or eagle dances and then even some of their dress is later dated . Now dont get me wrong many of the clothes have a traditional base but it takes a knowlagable person to see it many times.
I would also point out that the use of the term you have used for a native women should not be used as in most cases its taken as an insult . Some will say that that
Guest
Captchee,
My apologies for using any term that may be offensive. That term was used by the few Native Americans we know when discussing my wife's ability to portray an Indian woman and I have incorrectly assumed that it was acceptable. It is ignorance on my part for not knowing what is acceptable and what isn't. Please forgive. :sorry:
Your advice and Tipis' advice are sound. An example of how sound advice helps is your comments on your medicine wheel and the taslagi people. Once we know exactly what we want to do, it is these details that will make a diference to us and those that see us.
We have a good beginning with the books she brought home and being able to ask questions on this forum. Unfortunately, over the last 6 years, we have spent money on various items because we just liked the way they looked. Now we are attmepting to narrow things down to 1830 in the Rockies.
Thanks again and I had already sent you a response to your PM before I read all of this info.
My apologies for using any term that may be offensive. That term was used by the few Native Americans we know when discussing my wife's ability to portray an Indian woman and I have incorrectly assumed that it was acceptable. It is ignorance on my part for not knowing what is acceptable and what isn't. Please forgive. :sorry:
Your advice and Tipis' advice are sound. An example of how sound advice helps is your comments on your medicine wheel and the taslagi people. Once we know exactly what we want to do, it is these details that will make a diference to us and those that see us.
We have a good beginning with the books she brought home and being able to ask questions on this forum. Unfortunately, over the last 6 years, we have spent money on various items because we just liked the way they looked. Now we are attmepting to narrow things down to 1830 in the Rockies.
Thanks again and I had already sent you a response to your PM before I read all of this info.
Guest
wow !!! i cant believe i read all that LOL.
woohoooo
as a native person this word is and always has been offensive and I am anything but PC LOL
Anyway we are I assume all adults here so I think we can talk of this openly and as such.
I would like to point out that Algonquin and Iroquoian are family or classifications of people and languages . Each contain many distinctly different people and languages within them
squaw
it has and" I believe most always" meant in the English language to be a bought Indian woman , an Indian woman who was free for the taking and thus did not have the High standards of 18 century European women no mater how politely the English dictionary puts it
in the Iroquoian language "skwa" dose not carry that meaning. If you do a good look at eastern native peoples you will find that most if not all of us held our women in very high esteem. they owned most all food ,clothing , lodges,. The women
woohoooo
as a native person this word is and always has been offensive and I am anything but PC LOL
Anyway we are I assume all adults here so I think we can talk of this openly and as such.
I would like to point out that Algonquin and Iroquoian are family or classifications of people and languages . Each contain many distinctly different people and languages within them
squaw
it has and" I believe most always" meant in the English language to be a bought Indian woman , an Indian woman who was free for the taking and thus did not have the High standards of 18 century European women no mater how politely the English dictionary puts it
in the Iroquoian language "skwa" dose not carry that meaning. If you do a good look at eastern native peoples you will find that most if not all of us held our women in very high esteem. they owned most all food ,clothing , lodges,. The women
First, let me say that I don't use the word because I find it demeaning.
But, having grown up in the 50's, "squaw" was synonymous with "Indian woman" or "Indian wife". It did not have any of the connotations that you site. Perhaps living where you grew up it may have meant something else, but not in my circles or on TV or in movies, that I remember.
I do remember movies referring to every young Native woman as a "princess" and the young men as "braves". At the time, I didn't think squaw was any different that those other terms. But today, squaw and brave strike me as ridiculous and they do sound demeaning.
If a culture or race finds a word offensive, I will respect that and drop it from my vocabulary. I discuss this here only for the sake of understanding. My children are taught that there are certain "ethnic terms" words that we do not say - period.
Unfortunately, there are ethnic groups who perpetuate certain terms among themselves that are off-limits to others. This is not helpful in ridding our language of these terms.
Guest
If a culture or race finds a word offensive, I will respect that and drop it from my vocabulary. I discuss this here only for the sake of understanding. My children are taught that there are certain "ethnic terms" words that we do not say - period.
Unfortunately, there are ethnic groups who perpetuate certain terms among themselves that are off-limits to others. This is not helpful in ridding our language of these terms.
===========================================================
yep i understand totaly .
Unfortunately, there are ethnic groups who perpetuate certain terms among themselves that are off-limits to others. This is not helpful in ridding our language of these terms.
===========================================================
yep i understand totaly .
Guest
I kind of live in the dark ages when it comes to political correctness and need to be brought up to speed once in awhile. All I can say is that I am glad to read open conversion about a sensitive subject in the adult manner as it has been discussed here. I think Claude Mathis said it pretty well as I grew up in the same time frame as he.
It makes me wonder if a Native American topic area would be of interest to many of the folks that visit this forum. It could be an excellent opportunity to learn from real Native Americans and also from those that have spent a lot of time researching their history etc as tipis and others have done. I have found this forum extremely well administered and technically superior to all others I have visted (mostly modern day firearm type stuff).
Captchee, thank you for all of the info in your PM to me. I will visit that site and hopefully be accepted. I really appreciate all the time you spent on that very informative and enlighting message. Thank you.
I have noticed that many of the names of various Indian peoples/clans etc are not capitalized. How do you know when that is correct?
I should have explained to all that my wife already makes modern day jewelry with glass beads and similar things. She wanted to take the Indian earring class just to get an idea of what is involved. When she came home today, she said that she had a whole new respect and admiration for Indain bead work. She showed me what she made and tried to explain how difficult it truly is compared to the modern day stuff she makes. As we both suspected, the earrings are "Native American" and the instructor did not know anything more specific than that, but that is OK because now we can research it for ourselves and learn from that too.
This whole subject has proven to be most enlightening but also has created more questions than answers for a newbie!
It makes me wonder if a Native American topic area would be of interest to many of the folks that visit this forum. It could be an excellent opportunity to learn from real Native Americans and also from those that have spent a lot of time researching their history etc as tipis and others have done. I have found this forum extremely well administered and technically superior to all others I have visted (mostly modern day firearm type stuff).
Captchee, thank you for all of the info in your PM to me. I will visit that site and hopefully be accepted. I really appreciate all the time you spent on that very informative and enlighting message. Thank you.
I have noticed that many of the names of various Indian peoples/clans etc are not capitalized. How do you know when that is correct?
I should have explained to all that my wife already makes modern day jewelry with glass beads and similar things. She wanted to take the Indian earring class just to get an idea of what is involved. When she came home today, she said that she had a whole new respect and admiration for Indain bead work. She showed me what she made and tried to explain how difficult it truly is compared to the modern day stuff she makes. As we both suspected, the earrings are "Native American" and the instructor did not know anything more specific than that, but that is OK because now we can research it for ourselves and learn from that too.
This whole subject has proven to be most enlightening but also has created more questions than answers for a newbie!
I considered a Native area in the Reenacting category. I never pursued it though. I suppose it could cover all the time periods rather than breaking it down into the "war eras"?
I also fear the discussions turning into "who did what to who" on a political level. That would surely take away from any knowledge that might be shared. Some folks have a political mindset about how things were/are and they aren't receptive to any new information that might shake their version of history.
I'm open to ideas.
Guest
Hi Claude,
You have a valid point and it could prove to be a burden trying to keep things harmonious even with a very even tempered moderator.
If you were to ever consider a Native American category, possibly it could fit under the General section and as you thought, could be just an overall knowledgebase for questions regarding Native Americans. I also don't know how much bandwidth and memory you have for more subject areas and you already have things covered quite well as they are.
I don't know if anyone else does this, but since I watch very little TV I am entertained by just visiting this forum, picking a category and reading through one of the threads. It's amazing the little tid-bits than can be acquired when my worn out brain is able to retian what I have read! I am also a newbie and have everything to learn!
Thanks for the good job you do.
:thumbsup:
You have a valid point and it could prove to be a burden trying to keep things harmonious even with a very even tempered moderator.
If you were to ever consider a Native American category, possibly it could fit under the General section and as you thought, could be just an overall knowledgebase for questions regarding Native Americans. I also don't know how much bandwidth and memory you have for more subject areas and you already have things covered quite well as they are.
I don't know if anyone else does this, but since I watch very little TV I am entertained by just visiting this forum, picking a category and reading through one of the threads. It's amazing the little tid-bits than can be acquired when my worn out brain is able to retian what I have read! I am also a newbie and have everything to learn!
Thanks for the good job you do.
:thumbsup:
Something like: "Native American - Culture, Crafts, Reenacting, etc."?
As far as the Forum is concerned, unlimited categories and number of members.
Can you post a picture of the Earings your wife did?
The use of seed beads earings is a modern material for women.
The old earings were dentillium shells, silver and the larger shells. Remember...they did put this in the ear and they were heavy...the ears were bend out of shape in some cases.
The picture I am posting is around 1870s' and sorry for the incorrect wording on the bottom...but that is the way they wrote in those days. Words can evolve into dissrespect in anyway they maybe used. But I do not appologiez for History. It HAS happened...it cannot be changes. Only ideas can be changed....sometimes.
And...I am part Cheyenne/Comanche....besides a lot of Scottish. Highland games anyone???
The use of seed beads earings is a modern material for women.
The old earings were dentillium shells, silver and the larger shells. Remember...they did put this in the ear and they were heavy...the ears were bend out of shape in some cases.
The picture I am posting is around 1870s' and sorry for the incorrect wording on the bottom...but that is the way they wrote in those days. Words can evolve into dissrespect in anyway they maybe used. But I do not appologiez for History. It HAS happened...it cannot be changes. Only ideas can be changed....sometimes.
And...I am part Cheyenne/Comanche....besides a lot of Scottish. Highland games anyone???
Guest
Frank the no capitals in my posts are from my bad grammar. I wouldn
Guest
tipis the picture is interesting , I can see that this woman
the earings are not on "hooks" but metal rings that go thru the ears...top and bottom. I have abolone and the more popular pink abolone for my earings. She is not wearing all that you could...have some pictures where there are 4 on each ear. That is a lot to put in your ears for wieght.
Here are two photos of probably the same lady showing a slightly different angle.
Here are two photos of probably the same lady showing a slightly different angle.
Guest
ahhhhh i see it now thanks .
i have a couple pic of Sauk with probably 9 or 10 silver loops in just their upper ears . you can tell the wieght is so much the tops of their ears fold down
i have a couple pic of Sauk with probably 9 or 10 silver loops in just their upper ears . you can tell the wieght is so much the tops of their ears fold down
Guest
[/quote]
Something like: "Native American - Culture, Crafts, Reenacting, etc."?[/quote]
That is an outstanding idea Claude. I am sure there has to legitimate interest in accurate knowledge of all three topics you mentioned. Captchee has sent me several extremely informative PMs and I am sure that others, especially a newbie as myself who does not know what the others do, would find an opportunity to discuss the American Indian with real American Indians to be enlightening.
The idea may be worth considering.
Something like: "Native American - Culture, Crafts, Reenacting, etc."?[/quote]
That is an outstanding idea Claude. I am sure there has to legitimate interest in accurate knowledge of all three topics you mentioned. Captchee has sent me several extremely informative PMs and I am sure that others, especially a newbie as myself who does not know what the others do, would find an opportunity to discuss the American Indian with real American Indians to be enlightening.
The idea may be worth considering.
