The Brown Bess in California history

[wahkahchimaol.com]

I understand that the Mexican Army used Brown Bess muskets in the Tejas campaign, including at the Alamo. But were they ever used by the Mexican Army in California? And if so where? Did the Brown Bess occur in the wagons of emigrants via surplus or war capture sales? As war souveniers? Any references welcome. Thanks.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well the Alamo was 10 years before the Mexican American war, but ten years is not a lot of time in the flintlock era for guns to change. Plus remember that many of the 3rd models captured at New Orleans found their way into State armories, and also into civilian hands and that was the War of 1812.

The Bess of the Mexican Army was the 3rd Model, and was probably the weapon used by that army when engaged in some fighting with Americans. Unfortunately, some of the engagements in California, were United States forces, including Marines and sailors, against Californios..., locals of Mexican descent who were loyal to Mexico, and their largest force was of 600 Lancers, a la Napoleon, with very few firearms.

In the Battle of Rio San Gabriel January 8th 1847, and the Battle of La Mesa, Jan 9th, 1847 it was the Californios with a piece or two of artillery vs. United States infantry composed of Marines, Sailors, Soldiers, and some locals.

One account of the action at La Mesa claims the Americans won because they inflicted heavy casualties on the Californios as the Americans were "armed with rifles". I think that is just plain silly, as the American forces that day were the same as on the day before at Rio San Gabriel, and no mention of rifle fire is made at the battle on the 8th. Further, the lancers to attack had to close with a charge, and had the Americans been using rifles, fire would've been opened on the Californios from a distance..., the casualty rate would've been much higher.

The few Mexican soldiers probably had the 3rd Model Bess, the company or so of American volunteers could've had them, too. As for the American regular forces, they probably had one or more variations of US muskets, which were derived from the French patterns of the previous century..., or they had pistols and sabers, for there were dragoons among the American forces.

LD

 

[poordevil]

At Sutter's Fort in Sacramento ca. there are several Brown Bess Muskets on display

 

[satwel]

Some U.S. troops were issued Hall rifles during the Mexican war.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ah, but if the Hall system was on arms used in California..., was it Hall rifles or Hall smoothbores?

"The carbine design was produced beginning in 1833, using a smooth-bore barrel of 23 inches in length. It had an overall length of 43 inches, weighed 8 lbs, and was the first caplock firearm adopted by the U.S. Army. The following year, a carbine in .69 caliber was introduced for the Regiment of Dragoons, with a second run in 1836-1837. Barrel length was reduced to 21 inches in 1840, and a "fishtail" breech lever design credited to U.S. Army Captain James Huger was also introduced for the next 7,000 carbines, including the M1842 carbine, the final "regulation design" of the series."

The use of smooth bore breech loading guns might account for the lower casualty rates, and for some confusion by some historians who might think all Hall arms were rifled pieces??

LD

 

[texcl]

I have read several places that Santa Anna had equipped his army almost entirely of surplus weapons comprised mostly of bess's but that he also had bought many surplus baker rifles and the like and used them to good affect in a couple engagements, I would assume that the mexicans held on to those weapons until they were totally used up. They bought these surplus weapons because they were cheap and they thought they were getting a good deal.

 

[Carteret Kid]

Napoleanic War surplus guns flooded the international gun trade for years.

 

[BillinOregon]

I would expect the Californios to have been armed with an assortment of weapons, including worn-out Model 1752/57 Spanish muskets and an astonishing diversity of escopetas.

For more on the fascinating and overlooked 1752/57, go here: http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/1757-Spanish-Musket.html

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

After lots of research, what I know is that we don't know! I've talked with about six state parks. They all say that the Mexican Army I in California was armed with Brown Besses but that they don't have any genuine proof. The northernmost skirmishes seemed to have involved Californiano lancers using very old Catalan escopetas. But also there's a record of Sutter buying Besses in Hawaii of all places. But then the Russians sold out at Fort Ross and he switched his guards to 1777 Charlevilles. The State of California Parks Service seems to have taken most or all of the historic guns out of the park museums and hidden them. I'm not making this up. I don't know why. I will continue to research.

 

[Carteret Kid]

Sounds like gun phobia common in government these days.

 

[texcl]

I would think a good indicator of what was not used would be recovered balls. I know in Texas most of the balls recovered are of .75 cal. If the escopetas and charlesvilles are .69 cal, maybe we could draw some inferences. But if they all shoot the same ball I guess that goes out the window.

 

[Story]

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/paal/thunder-cannon/chap4.htm

After the Battle of Cerro Gordo, George Ballentine commented that “we found the road strewed with the muskets and bayonets which the Mexicans had thrown away in their hasty retreat. All of these muskets were of British manufacture and had the Tower mark on their locks. They were old and worn out, having evidently been condemned as unserviceable in the British army and then sold to the Mexicans at a low price.... After examining a few of them I came to the conclusion that for efficient service one of our muskets was equal to at least three of them.”

http://www.warandgame.info/2008/03/weapons-of-mexican-war-18461847.html

A VERY GOOD MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR PERIOD "PAGET" TYPE ENGLISH FLINTLOCK CARBINE, ca. 1835: http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms.htm http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/paget.htm

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Here's what has happened in my hunt for Brown Besses in California history: I have seen and photographed the relic remains of a Brown Bess India pattern type one in an archaeological dig of a Spanish Mission. The strata are dated to about 1810-1815.

And this afternoon I found an undiscovered Brown Bess on display at a nearby adobe. It is extremely rusted and the stock is broken. The wrist was broken and repaired with nails. This adds to the previously unproven hypothesis that the Brown Bess was in use in California prior to the Mexican War. I don't know the provinence of the gun but it is a long time pre-1900 holding of the Historical Society

It's a type II India pattern, made during the Napoleonic Wars, apparently sold as surplus by the British without being issued to British Line Troops. I can't find any Mexican markings at this time, but that's normal. The flashhole is so enlarged and the frizzen is so worn from use that the gun was certainly fired to the point of disability. If only it could talk.

In the next couple of days I will post photos at "Timewalker Guide Service" on Facebook.

The study and search continue.

!!!!!

 

[Carteret Kid]

A Bess in those years would have been come from the Spanish Army. Remember that before 1821 California was a separate colony from Mexico. It was occupied by the Spanish army. The Mexican Army was in California for only 25 years.