Some historical context concerning the Brown Bess musket

[TraderVic]

I too like the history lesson. Just spent the week at Gettysburg.

Gettysburg, and other battlefields, is on my bucket list.

 

[sportster73hp]

Gettysburg, and other battlefields, is on my bucket list.

Enjoyed the encampment and battle re enactment at the Daniel Lady farm July 3-4.
Surprised there were few people at the self guided car route on July 4th. Hit up Regimental Quartermaster and a few t-shirt shop . And drove to Dixon’s on Tuesday.

 

[ArtyGunner]

"The Army Musket--1700-1815"

In the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise--
An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes--
At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

Though her sight was not long and her weight was not small,
Yet her actions were winning, her language was clear;
And everyone bowed as she opened the ball
On the arm of some high-gaitered, grim grenadier.
Half Europe admitted the striking success
Of the dances and routs that were given by Brown Bess.

When ruffles were turned into stiff leather stocks,
And people wore pigtails instead of perukes,
Brown Bess never altered her iron-grey locks.
She knew she was valued for more than her looks.
"Oh, powder and patches was always my dress,
And I think am killing enough," said Brown Bess.

So she followed her red-coats, whatever they did,
From the heights of Quebec to the plains of Assaye,
From Gibraltar to Acre, Cape Town and Madrid,
And nothing about her was changed on the way;
(But most of the Empire which now we possess
Was won through those years by old-fashioned Brown Bess.)

In stubborn retreat or in stately advance,
From the Portugal coast to the cork-woods of Spain,
She had puzzled some excellent Marshals of France
Till none of them wanted to meet her again:
But later, near Brussels, Napoleon--no less--
Arranged for a Waterloo ball with Brown Bess.

She had danced till the dawn of that terrible day--
She danced till the dusk of more terrible night,
And before her linked squares his battalions gave way,
And her long fierce quadrilles put his lancers to flight:
And when his gilt carriage drove off in the press,
"I have danced my last dance for the world!" said Brown Bess.

If you go to Museums--there's one in Whitehall--
Where old weapons are shown with their names writ beneath,
You will find her, upstanding, her back to the wall,
As stiff as a ramrod, the flint in her teeth.
And if ever we English had reason to bless
Any arm save our mothers', that arm is Brown Bess!

Rudyard Kipling

 

[PathfinderNC]

The cable series "Outlander" has nice looking troops; very authentic period atmosphere; I'm waiting for some 'nit picker' to say that the Besses aren't perfect replica Dublin Castles!

For those who do not get cable or watch TV, is this series available on DVD ?

 

[Tumbledown]

The cable series "Outlander" has nice looking troops; very authentic period atmosphere; I'm waiting for some 'nit picker' to say that the Besses aren't perfect replica Dublin Castles!

Seeing men with facial hair kills it for me.

 

[sportster73hp]

For those who do not get cable or watch TV, is this series available on DVD ?

Yes i found it on amazon. Any single season , 1-4,1-5 , 6 and 7 separately

 

[PathfinderNC]

Yes i found it on amazon. Any single season , 1-4,1-5 , 6 and 7 separately

Thanks!

 

[Artificer]

So- totally related & unrelated questions (obvious newb to this board)
1-Other than Wilson, were there major commercial shipments from Brown Bess makers to North America 1750-1770?
2-Given that Track has stopped selling their LLP kits & TRS is what it is (magnificent, but ungainly), what do you advise guys trying to accurately interpret 1774-1778 with Besses to do?
(I’m actually okay myself, one TRS kit gun “Wooldridge” & one Track “Willits”. Not blown away by either lock marking, but I’ll certainly survive.)

Can/should the Miroku & Pedersoli beaters out there get turned into something vaguely accurate, or are my buddies doomed?

Help!
Dave Barno
Out in Ohio

Hi Dave,

Sounds like you would really like the below links done by Dave Person.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-pedersoli-brown-bess-kit.147669/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...nto-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
Gus

 

[Joemolf]

I too like the history lesson. Just spent the week at Gettysburg.

I have to get out more! I want to get to Old Williamsburg, Fort Ticonderoga, and Gettysburg. I have never been to Old Williamsburg so number one for me on my list. Missed that family trip because I was a jerky late teen. Which would have been mid 1970s. From what I heard the old rifle shop was in operation back then. Damn I’ve always been a tinker loved Daniel Boone, Flintlocks and had I witnessed that shop in operation who knows I may have got involved with the hobby and sport 40 years ago. On a positive note which may not be positive I’d have a greater collection LOL. Question! Are they still finding the balls and minis they were in 70s every time they worked the fields. I still have my small collection of ball, mini ball, mini on ball at my fathers house. My mom saved all our memorabilia. You had a nice trip. I still remember eating at a country restaurant where you sat with another family and the wonderful food that was delicious that was near Amish Town.

 

[French Colonial]

Seeing men with facial hair kills it for me.

???????

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hi Dave,
The lock is marked "William Predden" . You miss the "P" because it is hidden behind the flintcock. There is an almost identical example in the George Neumann collection at Valley Forge National Historical Park. Predden was a contractor to British Ordnance during 1693-1720. The gun in question probably was made in 1715 or so. It predates the "King's Pattern" that we come to call the Brown Bess. These guns have strong Dutch influence.

dave

I bid on eBay uk and bought a rusty commercial 1812 Bess lock for £240 only 3 miles away its ok photo.

Another at the same time was a hand made lock 1820’by a good London lock maker seller 300 miles away , very nice.as new EBayuk starting bid £240’ I offered over £300 but he let it run. I did not bother to bid, it sold for £220. Such is life and eBay

However what’s a bit of rust. It’s a great sparker does every thing I want, and what history too the first Bess lock cost me £17 in 1973. I was on £1400 salary a year

Brown Bess muskets do not seem to have gone up in price since 1973 not been a good investment. Too many coming onto the market I guess. Unspeakable double rifle going up and up great investment got 4 of them

Hot as hell west of London of course being retired I can sit and doze by my tiny pool.

I wish you all well

 

[sportster73hp]

I have to get out more! I want to get to Old Williamsburg, Fort Ticonderoga, and Gettysburg. I have never been to Old Williamsburg so number one for me on my list. Missed that family trip because I was a jerky late teen. Which would have been mid 1970s. From what I heard the old rifle shop was in operation back then. Damn I’ve always been a tinker loved Daniel Boone, Flintlocks and had I witnessed that shop in operation who knows I may have got involved with the hobby and sport 40 years ago. On a positive note which may not be positive I’d have a greater collection LOL. Question! Are they still finding the balls and minis they were in 70s every time they worked the fields. I still have my small collection of ball, mini ball, mini on ball at my fathers house. My mom saved all our memorabilia. You had a nice trip. I still remember eating at a country restaurant where you sat with another family and the wonderful food that was delicious that was near Amish Town.

Relic hunting is not permitted on the battlefield, maybe outside the accepted zone. Went to colonial Williamsburg a fee years ago. Gun shop still working making guns the old fashioned way. If you make it to Williamsburg go to Yorktown, it is a short drive away.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I came across what I think is a India (or third model) pattern Brown Bess lock with a detachable pan, reconversion maybe ? I’ve seen them with welded and brazed pans. Harry Schroeder of Butche’s antique gun parts makes reconversions parts, he said he’s never seen one with a detachable pan, he suggested homemade.

Hi this is a made in India bess lock I chucked the rest away except for the brass bits. It was manure till I used a bit of epoxy sparks ok. But is it worth the bother. I said elsewhere on the forum genuine Bess locks go for around £250 on eBay uk. Often rusty but brilliant sparklers you need patience to find one

 

[springfield art]

Hi Dave,

Brass was also very expensive in England for the first half of the 18th century as well. This because the higher grades of copper ore that were able to be surface mined had pretty much dried up two to three centuries before. So England was forced to buy most of their copper and brass from the continent.

Then in the early 18th century, the Welsh came up with a new smelting process to economically smelt lower grades of copper, this became known as the Swansea process in your link. In the 1740's, new technology was invented for water pumps for deep hole mining that began to be used for copper mines late in that decade. By the 1750's with both of these new technologies, England began producing large quantities of Copper and then brass for the first time in centuries. This meant a big reduction in the price of copper until as your link pointed out, it began to be used to sheath ship hulls in the 1780's.

Gus

See: Poldark series for mining in the 18th C. !

 

[springfield art]

Relic hunting is not permitted on the battlefield, maybe outside the accepted zone. Went to colonial Williamsburg a fee years ago. Gun shop still working making guns the old fashioned way. If you make it to Williamsburg go to Yorktown, it is a short drive away.

I've a friend who has extensive experience detecting on Private Land with permission around G-burg. Amazing stuff! SNY buckle, wedding ring (old), 20-pounder rifled shot: was able to ID battery it was from as only small number of such guns at the battle; could "look" and see where it came from as position was known from records; numerous bullets of course, etc. All legally on private land with permission.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi this is a made in India bess lock I chucked the rest away except for the brass bits. It was manure till I used a bit of epoxy sparks ok. But is it worth the bother. I said elsewhere on the forum genuine Bess locks go for around £250 on eBay uk. Often rusty but brilliant sparklers you need patience to find one

That’s a Miroku Japanese made lock. Can tell by the reinforced lock bolt, engravings and borders, frizzen spring and mainspring.

The lock with the detachable pan ended up being a reconversion of a second model Brown Bess that was done very well. Wish i had pictures of it, still waiting on them.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Nope sorry it’s Indian made Japanese would not have made such manure ha ha. You should have seen the Indian blunderbuss it came off. No it was not stamped “ made in Bombay” so I give you 50/50 but interesting comment

 

[FlinterNick]

Nope sorry it’s Indian made Japanese would not have made such manure ha ha. You should have seen the Indian blunderbuss it came off. No it was not stamped “ made in Bombay” so I give you 50/50 but interesting comment

Hmm well it looks an awful lot like a miroku lock, maybe Miroku copied an Indian made bess lock.

 

[Artificer]

I have to get out more! I want to get to Old Williamsburg, Fort Ticonderoga, and Gettysburg. I have never been to Old Williamsburg so number one for me on my list. Missed that family trip because I was a jerky late teen. Which would have been mid 1970s. From what I heard the old rifle shop was in operation back then. Damn I’ve always been a tinker loved Daniel Boone, Flintlocks and had I witnessed that shop in operation who knows I may have got involved with the hobby and sport 40 years ago. On a positive note which may not be positive I’d have a greater collection LOL. Question! Are they still finding the balls and minis they were in 70s every time they worked the fields. I still have my small collection of ball, mini ball, mini on ball at my fathers house. My mom saved all our memorabilia. You had a nice trip. I still remember eating at a country restaurant where you sat with another family and the wonderful food that was delicious that was near Amish Town.

The OLD gunsmith shop where the film was made of Wallace Gusler making a rifle is gone, though it was there from the 1960's to as late as 2007. I visited it five times between 1974 and 2006. The problem was the shop itself was only an interpretation of a gun shop and never on that site. So, CW decided to move it to where it was historically correct.

However, don't despair. In 2008 the Gunsmith Shop moved to James Geddy Sr. & son’s forge where William and David carried on the trade in the mid-18th century to right up to the AWI. About the time I was ready to visit, Corvid hit, so I'm looking forward to visiting there.

Gus

 

[sportster73hp]

The OLD gunsmith shop where the film was made of Wallace Gusler making a rifle is gone, though it was there from the 1960's to as late as 2007. I visited it five times between 1974 and 2006. The problem was the shop itself was only an interpretation of a gun shop and never on that site. So, CW decided to move it to where it was historically correct.

However, don't despair. In 2008 the Gunsmith Shop moved to James Geddy Sr. & son’s forge where William and David carried on the trade in the mid-18th century to right up to the AWI. About the time I was ready to visit, Corvid hit, so I'm looking forward to visiting there.

Gus

I was there around 2015. Didn’t realize the building was new/ newer.