The Brown Bess in combat- how effective was it ?

[Grenadier1758]

How did soldiers of the day reload after their bayonets were fixed..?

They drilled to load after bayonets were fixed. Typically when bayonets were fixed the shooting was over and it was time to sweep the battle field from the enemy. It is amazing how far the clicks of inserting a bayonet can travel and how unnerving that can be even in a reenactment. And in a reenactment, there will not be a bayonet charge. We have done the fix bayonet, load and fire demonstration with a mock fixed bayonet charge. We stop after a few yards. Its something one doesn't want to see from the pointy end side.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

At a black powder gun fair in PA, one guy had explained they loved using wasp nests, termite wood, and bark fungus. I would imagine something like dried corn husks could work too, I mean if they wiped their Arses with it, why not.

Of course! The cob or the dried leaves, etc...

LD

 

[Artificer]

How did soldiers of the day reload after their bayonets were fixed..?

Hi Penny and welcome to the forum!

Though there were still some "plug" bayonets used in the 18th century that plugged the bore, most bayonets in the 18th century had a socket that went around the barrel to hold the bayonet in place, but the blade of the bayonet was offset away from the muzzle. That allowed them to reload with the bayonets fixed, because nothing was directly over the barrel's muzzle.

Now having the bayonet fixed does make it a bit more difficult to load, but nothing that period training did not overcome.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The psychological technique of training soldiers to see the enemy not as a human being, but as a target, is relatively new. In other words, in past times many soldiers had a harder time killing one another due to a number of factors not the least of which was empathy.

Fascinating read and very enlightening. There’s also a theory to explain why so many muskets have been found loaded multiple times as well. Soldiers, at least some, would simply keep loading cartridges into their gun rather than shoot at the enemy. They’d seem like they were doing their job during all the noise and confusion but just did not want to fire at other people.

Unfortunately, while this may apply to the ACW, and the rifled musket..., it is highly unlikely that it applies to the Bess in the Age of The Flintlock smoothbore. It may be just so much sophistry.

Because, the Bess was seen by the military minds of the time as a spear that shoots, NOT as a firearm with the blade attached. And the soldiers engaged each other with the blade after "softening up" the other side, followed by a charge. In fact the British got the habit early in the AWI to simply advance at a pace akin to the modern "airborne shuffle" to draw Continental fire, and then close the distance with the bayonets before the Continentals could reload. Some units in some battles didn't actually fire their muskets. So the enemy was seen very up close and personal, and with the intent of sticking them in the chest. Not much empathy there. (See With Zeal and Bayonets Only by Matthew Spring. )

I was aware that some muskets in the ACW were found to be carrying multiple loads, but not "so many"..., and as I recall they were found having been used by undertrained troops during their first action. More likely men unnerved by being shot at for the first time, and having also seen a nearby person hit by a .58 caliber bullet and the damage it will do to the human body. Coupled with the fact that such a phenomenon as the overloaded musket would've been a regular thing from the beginning of the use of conscripted armies in the muzzle loading age in other parts of the world, but this does not seem to be the case. Mind numbing panic seems more plausible....,

LD

 

[tenngun]

There is a long thread on about blowing down the barrel between shots.
Some see it as as a danger as one could not notice that his gun didn’t fire and put his mouth over a loaded gun and blew a hang fire in to a flame to set of the gun.
It seems unlikely that you don’t know if your gun shot.... but just maybe in the hurly-burly of a range and every one shooting and opps you didn’t notice your shot didn’t go. The boom you heard and the smoke you saw was the boy next to you.
Now picture a line in battle-men at each shoulder, smoke, screams, blood, smoke on the field so thick you could walk on it . Not knowing if your gun fired or not is certainly possible.
Personally I never bought the ‘men didn’t want to kill and so didn’t shoot’ idea.
I’ve had more then one gun that the cap went off or flash in the pan that didn’t go off second time I primed.
I think scared men didn’t know their gun hadn’t shot.

 

[user 47816]

As a civil war skirmisher I have witnessed several cook offs. This is when the person on the line loading his musket has the powder charge go off. Scared the heck out of everybody else.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Penny,
Also keep in mind, the edges of an 18th century triangular bayonet were not really sharpened, only the tip. So there is little danger of a soldier cutting his arm or hand on the edges when loading.

dave

 

[Canute Rex]

How did soldiers of the day reload after their bayonets were fixed..?

Getting back around to the Brown Bess, the development that changed battle dramatically was the socket bayonet. Previous to that, musket men needed pike men to protect them, especially from cavalry. There were plug bayonets that fit in the muzzle of the musket, but they were difficult to keep in place and couldn't be put in place until the last moment.

The socket bayonet locked in place on a lug and was offset to one side so that the soldier could load and fire with it in place, allowing an instant transfer from shooting to stabbing. This eliminated the need for pike men and allowed the full strength of a unit to be devoted to muskets, dramatically increasing the number of balls sent downrange per minute.

A British soldier would spend a good portion of his time practicing bayonet fencing with his Brown Bess. Much more time that he ever spent live firing it. It was as much a spear that also shot as a musket that also stabbed.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Loyalist Dave , Perhaps the empathy for fellow man was relevant on the field during the engagement, but I believe the multiple loads in the musket came from fear, confusion and excitement. why would a solider repeatedly load and not fire when all you had to do was go through the motions, even the sgts. and officers would be very busy in the heat of battle although they may try to monitor the troops actions my bet is they were trying to save their own arses while making line and formation adjustments to address the conditions on the field.

 

[wulf1928]

Two reasons, first the brits were religious enough not to be murders by aiming and secondly he didn't
want to get his eyes burnt out by the vent flash from the musket to his left. Remember, they are standing shoulder to shoulder.....

 

[Jay Templin]

I've heard a lot of people over the years claim that bayonets weren't sharpened. Never seen a period reference to the practice of using dull ones, though.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have never sharpened my bayonet. I participate in the military exercises held at the October Military weekend at Fort de Chartres. A couple of exercises require us to stick our bayonet into a swinging cantaloupe or grapefruit. The point easily penetrates the skin of the fruit. We have done other exercises on the penetration capabilities of the bayonet. No one needs to sharpen the bayonet to punch through our demonstration objects. They are sharp enough.

 

[FlinterNick]

Loyalist Dave , Perhaps the empathy for fellow man was relevant on the field during the engagement, but I believe the multiple loads in the musket came from fear, confusion and excitement. why would a solider repeatedly load and not fire when all you had to do was go through the motions, even the sgts. and officers would be very busy in the heat of battle although they may try to monitor the troops actions my bet is they were trying to save their own arses while making line and formation adjustments to address the conditions on the field.

Well, not every boy or man that held a musket was destined to be a great soldier with it. In the field of combat, while reloading there was a real fear of being shot in the next volley, a soldier slight of hearing or even with a touch of tinitus may have thought their musket fired off and reloading it not thinking otherwise.

 

[Artificer]

Well, not every boy or man that held a musket was destined to be a great soldier with it. In the field of combat, while reloading there was a real fear of being shot in the next volley, a soldier slight of hearing or even with a touch of tinitus may have thought their musket fired off and reloading it not thinking otherwise.

Even with 26 years in the USMC, it turned out my main combat experience was with a shotgun, by my own choosing. The worst night action, I don't remember loading the shotgun at all, but I did. (Maybe all my early years hunting with a shotgun saved my hide.) All I know is every time I pulled the trigger, the shotgun went off and since I was firing a lot of rounds, I had to have been reloading. Heck, I don't remember the shotgun going off all the time. I was also leading a squad, so my mind was on that as well. When it was over, I was surprised to see there were between two and three 25 round boxes of full brass case shotgun hulls on the ground where I had fought.

Bottom line, anything is possible in combat.

Gus

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Just read an account of some British rangers during the French & Indian using a priming horn along with their paper cartridges for their Brown Besses.

I thought “hmm that’s pretty cool”

If I pack in a few more hard ciders tonight, I might convince myself to finally buy a Pedersoli Brown Bess...

 

[appalichian hunter]

Artificer that relates to repeated training and muscle memory, your autonymically nervous system takes over your actions kind of like automatic without you ever thinking about it, the human brain is say programmed to do what needs to be done without you ever thinking about it, brute reaction in times of extreme stress.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
If you think about it, sharpening the 3 edges of the bayonet would be stupid. You risk injuring yourself when loading. It was not a slashing weapon anyway and did not need sharp edges.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Artificer that relates to repeated training and muscle memory, your autonymically nervous system takes over your actions kind of like automatic without you ever thinking about it, the human brain is say programmed to do what needs to be done without you ever thinking about it, brute reaction in times of extreme stress.

That's a good point and relates back to the Brown Bess as Soldiers were so often drilled in the loading and firing procedures, it became muscle memory.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

Just read an account of some British rangers during the French & Indian using a priming horn along with their paper cartridges for their Brown Besses.

I thought “hmm that’s pretty cool”

If I pack in a few more hard ciders tonight, I might convince myself to finally buy a Pedersoli Brown Bess...

I thought for years a NWG was just what I needed. When I got one I didn’t care for it that much, my TFC just made me more happy to shoot.
You never know till you own one. I think besses are awful pretty, and I regret getting rid of mine many years ago. But.... I wanted something else at the time so trading seemed a good idea( since then I’ve traded and traded again) .
When you get a bess I bet you will like it. If not, it won’t be hard to trade off.

 

[Artificer]

Hi,
If you think about it, sharpening the 3 edges of the bayonet would be stupid. You risk injuring yourself when loading. It was not a slashing weapon anyway and did not need sharp edges.

dave

Good point.

Also, fixing and unfixing a triangular blade sharpened all the way down, would have severely cut up the soldiers' hands as well.

Gus