I've been shooting a "Flinch Lock" since about April this year. I converted my Dixie Tenn. Mnt. Rifle with a replacement lock from Dixie. Sweet little lock. Anyway, I'm hitting pretty good, but with a few exceptions. On the occasion that the ignition fails, I have a tendency to drop the barrel tip a tad. On a slow fire I will hit low. Is this a normal reaction? How can I remedy this? Second question. As the day gets longer and I get tired, I start stringing my shots to the right. They are bull high but sometimes as much six inches right at 50 yards. I figure that I'm dropping my elbow and tilting the rifle as I become fatigued. Anybody got any ideas how to correct this? :hmm:
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The Dreaded Flinch
- Thread starter rrgr40
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WOW... you and me both. Before I got my flintlock I used to always say how much I respected those that shot them. I now know just how right I was. It takes a lot of determination to hold tight, follow through, and get immediate ignition. I am still learning myself.
I have been spending a lot of time just practicing the follow through aspect when I shoot. Even if the fire is immediate, I try and hold until I can look through the smoke. This is the one thing I found that helps. It seems to be working because I will suddenly see the hole appear when at the 25 yard line. When I get a slight delay I still find that if I practice that follow through I get better groups. I basically talk myself into ignoring anything that goes on in the flash of the pan.
I have been spending a lot of time just practicing the follow through aspect when I shoot. Even if the fire is immediate, I try and hold until I can look through the smoke. This is the one thing I found that helps. It seems to be working because I will suddenly see the hole appear when at the 25 yard line. When I get a slight delay I still find that if I practice that follow through I get better groups. I basically talk myself into ignoring anything that goes on in the flash of the pan.
Actually.. I force myself to keep both eyes open before, during, and after the shot. Like I said I have shot and then seen the hole appear and the sights are still almost in the general area, so I must be learning to ignor that first flash.
Although I will admit, the darker outside it is, the harder it is to not flinch. When I was hunting with the rifle and came in at the end of the day and fired it off, the first time I did it after sunset, I was shocked at the flash to the right that came out of the rifle... (actually it was kind of cool.. :: )
Although I will admit, the darker outside it is, the harder it is to not flinch. When I was hunting with the rifle and came in at the end of the day and fired it off, the first time I did it after sunset, I was shocked at the flash to the right that came out of the rifle... (actually it was kind of cool.. :: )
The trick I learned for firing a flintlock is to give yourself up for dead before squeezing the trigger. Clear your mind, relax as many or your shoulder and neck muscles as possible, lat the weight of the rifle balance itself out so that it hangs in place, pull it to your shoulder with the non-trigger fingers and thumb of the right hand and follow through after the shot without letting the gun lower for a two count.
Any sane person blinks when a flintlock fires. What you want to aviod is the jumping that can accompany it. :relax:
As far as stringing to the right . . . if it was a pistol I would say you were thumbing. Dropping your elbow during the shot might cause it, as the meat or your palm would press harder against the wrist, but it's beyond me trying to diagnose without watching. Relaxing the shoulders before the shot should help that. Fatigue happens to more than muscles. The concentration of target shooting can tire your brain. Stop BEFORE you get used up. If you keep going you're just practicing bad form.
But . . . practice, practice, practice.
Any sane person blinks when a flintlock fires. What you want to aviod is the jumping that can accompany it. :relax:
As far as stringing to the right . . . if it was a pistol I would say you were thumbing. Dropping your elbow during the shot might cause it, as the meat or your palm would press harder against the wrist, but it's beyond me trying to diagnose without watching. Relaxing the shoulders before the shot should help that. Fatigue happens to more than muscles. The concentration of target shooting can tire your brain. Stop BEFORE you get used up. If you keep going you're just practicing bad form.
But . . . practice, practice, practice.
Rat
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I always find this discussion interesting, because when I shoot I'm not even aware of the flash in the pan. Totally oblivious to it. About the only thing that enters my conciousness, besided the sights, is the sound of when the frizzen comes to it's stop on the spring...kind of a "whang" or "wunk" or something.
I've had a lot of formal marksmanship training, and I'd say if there was one single important thing, for me at least it's the follow-through for sure. That and blocking out all outside stimuli and being 100% focused on the sights.
Rat
I've had a lot of formal marksmanship training, and I'd say if there was one single important thing, for me at least it's the follow-through for sure. That and blocking out all outside stimuli and being 100% focused on the sights.
Rat
Hello,
Years ago I shot in a lot of the local matches.At that time muzzle loading was really hot in eastern Ohio where I live.I found that for me concentration to the point of meditation was necessary and if done propperly the flash was not[url] noticed.In[/url] the case of a hangfire I would tense up and move my shoulder tighter into the buttplate pushing the rifle slightly toward the target. This would help over come the downward[url] movement.In[/url] those days I shot with some guys that could give anyone a run for thier money.Chuck Shields,John Schultz,Red Virtue and Ron Habig to name a few.These shooters were great I wasn't.I hope my humble thoughts are of some benefit.
Years ago I shot in a lot of the local matches.At that time muzzle loading was really hot in eastern Ohio where I live.I found that for me concentration to the point of meditation was necessary and if done propperly the flash was not[url] noticed.In[/url] the case of a hangfire I would tense up and move my shoulder tighter into the buttplate pushing the rifle slightly toward the target. This would help over come the downward[url] movement.In[/url] those days I shot with some guys that could give anyone a run for thier money.Chuck Shields,John Schultz,Red Virtue and Ron Habig to name a few.These shooters were great I wasn't.I hope my humble thoughts are of some benefit.
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if your worried bout the flash and have someone there try letting them put primer in the pan or not with out you knowing if they did or not....the gun empty of course....this way ya don't know if it's going to flash or mot.....................bob
I agree... It also may help new flintlock shooters, and veteran flint shooters to go over a mental check list as they prepare to fire. Here is what goes through my mind as I bring my rifle to shoulder;
Stance,,, Elbow,,, Don't Cant The Barrel,,, Stay Focused On The Sights,,, Follow Through...
Make these five steps your primary goal... You should see results through good grouping of shots... Then adjust the sights for some good accuracy.
The five steps may take some time, but just make it part of what you need to do and in no time you should start seeing some good results... :imo: :thumbsup:
Works for me! It also doesn't hurt to keep telling yourself, "I can make this shot!" :redthumb:
eace:Carl Aldridge
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When I bought my flintlock, I practiced dry firing with an empty pan to get used to the sparks coming off the frizzen. Then I started priming the pan to get used to the flash. This also helped me iron out the bugs in my flint adjustment. By the time I was able to shoot it at the range I was totally comfortable with the spark and flash. As for muzzleblast, good hearing protection from the start goes a long way toward preventing noise induced flinching. :m2c:
hole_in_hand
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Some people have a tendency to close their eye's just as they fire the gun.When you close them you will move off target.If you dont see these things happen in this order you have close your eye's. 1.see the ball hit at the exact place you was looking at when you took the shoot. 2.you will see the muzzel blast come out of the barrel. 3.now comes the smoke. The ball has now cleared the barrel. You may want to wear glasses this will help you to keep your eye's open.
mark starr
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for myself I had to drill out the touch-hole so the ignition was faster now the rifle shoots faster than I can flinch. And the more confidence I've gained in the rifle the easier it is to follow through.
Rat
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Ha ha..."faster than you can flinch"!!!
:crackup:
Naw...you should not flinch even if it takes ten seconds for the rifle to fire...so ignition time is not a factor, or should not be.
But it's good to have as fast ignition as possible. On the other hand, to cure a flinch, a slow ignition could be better...???
::
Anyhow I forgot to say, as far as follow through goes, when the gun fires the sights will go out of allignment...bring them back as fast as possible, and count to ten, holding them on target. Sure people will wonder what yer doing, but just get in the frame of mind that the shot is not over the second the gun goes bang.
Rat
:crackup:
Naw...you should not flinch even if it takes ten seconds for the rifle to fire...so ignition time is not a factor, or should not be.
But it's good to have as fast ignition as possible. On the other hand, to cure a flinch, a slow ignition could be better...???
::
Anyhow I forgot to say, as far as follow through goes, when the gun fires the sights will go out of allignment...bring them back as fast as possible, and count to ten, holding them on target. Sure people will wonder what yer doing, but just get in the frame of mind that the shot is not over the second the gun goes bang.
Rat
First off, the mechanics of a flint lock is different, there is a small explosion going on right beside your face, this takes a while to get use to...
Then there is torque, a percussion gun has a hammer that hits the cap and that's the limitation of the movement, a flintlock has the hammer fall, and the flint hitting the frizzen, plus the frizzen movement itself along with the priming powder burning...
The frizzen is also restricted by a spring, so this adds to any torque/resistance which could throw your sight picture off...
Try shorter shooting sessions until you get use to shooting it more, slowly work up to longer shooting sessions...
When you are tired, does a caplock rifle shoot to the right as well? :hmm:
Then there is torque, a percussion gun has a hammer that hits the cap and that's the limitation of the movement, a flintlock has the hammer fall, and the flint hitting the frizzen, plus the frizzen movement itself along with the priming powder burning...
The frizzen is also restricted by a spring, so this adds to any torque/resistance which could throw your sight picture off...
Try shorter shooting sessions until you get use to shooting it more, slowly work up to longer shooting sessions...
When you are tired, does a caplock rifle shoot to the right as well? :hmm:
Chickenfax
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A couple of things.
First, for me, the flinch game becomes mental. Before each shot, I remind myself to concentrate on an easy trigger squeeze and disregard when the hammer will fall. I don't think it is necessary to have someone prime your pan (or not) to see if you are flinching. I get enough flash-in-the-pans (2 or 3) during the course of the day that I can tell from that if I am flinching or pulling off target. The more you practice, the more you will realize what you are doing. You should be able to call out your shot. For example, "That went high-right" and then confirm. I hardly ever notice the flash when I am shooting. As for sparks.. never. I also try expect a hang-fire and concentrate on my follow through in that event. That way, when I get near-instantaneous ignition, I am pleasantly surprised and get good results.
Second, I used to hold the gun tight against my shoulder with both hands. Then one day I started using my left hand (non-trigger) to just hold the weight of the gun. As if it were a sandbag rest. My groups got smaller by at least half.
And finally, I concentrate on keeping my eyes open throughout. I want to be able to see the patch after the shot is let off. There are times, however, that I only shoot with one eye open. It depends on how well I am seeing the sight picture. Having astigmatism leads to good days and bad days. If I am tired, my eyesight isn't as good.
Well anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. The most important thing is get a lot of range time in. It's the only way to improve.
:m2c:
First, for me, the flinch game becomes mental. Before each shot, I remind myself to concentrate on an easy trigger squeeze and disregard when the hammer will fall. I don't think it is necessary to have someone prime your pan (or not) to see if you are flinching. I get enough flash-in-the-pans (2 or 3) during the course of the day that I can tell from that if I am flinching or pulling off target. The more you practice, the more you will realize what you are doing. You should be able to call out your shot. For example, "That went high-right" and then confirm. I hardly ever notice the flash when I am shooting. As for sparks.. never. I also try expect a hang-fire and concentrate on my follow through in that event. That way, when I get near-instantaneous ignition, I am pleasantly surprised and get good results.
Second, I used to hold the gun tight against my shoulder with both hands. Then one day I started using my left hand (non-trigger) to just hold the weight of the gun. As if it were a sandbag rest. My groups got smaller by at least half.
And finally, I concentrate on keeping my eyes open throughout. I want to be able to see the patch after the shot is let off. There are times, however, that I only shoot with one eye open. It depends on how well I am seeing the sight picture. Having astigmatism leads to good days and bad days. If I am tired, my eyesight isn't as good.
Well anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. The most important thing is get a lot of range time in. It's the only way to improve.
:m2c:
When I first started with a flintlock I wore a slouch hat or something with a brim, then I positioned the brim between my eyes and the lock. This forced me to not think about the lock since I didn't see the hammer fall, soon I learned to not even think about the flash.
Guest
Well, you can do what I did...
1) Load and prime your gun
2) stand at the firing line
3) Have your Significant Other of Choice stand behind you with a 2X4
4) As you squeeze the trigger, jerk your shoulders a bit, or close your eyes so that the shot goes wild.
5) When the ball has safely left the barrel, have said S.O.C. whack you a good one across the back of the legs. This will hurt much more than the flinching does and may inspire you to hold steady.
6) Repeat as needed until flinching stops.
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Although I am new to muzzleloading I am not new to shooting. And even though you sound very knowledgable and don't need the following info, I thought maybe someone reading the posts might get something from it.
I used to be into competing big time. I did a lot of high power and big bore stuff at long range. Having said that, I have been to the range 5 times with my Lyman great plains 50Cal. I think alot of the basics stay the same even with the flash. In the military they teach BRAS. Breath, Relax, Aim, Squeeze. With this technique, be extremely focused on your front sight. Your rear sight should be in view just enough to make sure the front sight is seated correctly in the notch, but the focus on the front sight has to be sharp as can be. While focused on the front sight you will notice it moves in a triange in cadance with your breating. Pay attention to where you front sight is in relation to your target at the point of your exhale. You are at you most still point at the end of your exhale just before the transition to your inhale (Don't hold your breathe however! you will shake) Let the round fly at the exhale where your triangle is at the point of center mass on your target. Your view of the target should be blurry your view of the front sight should be crystal clear.
(don't mistake this for proper target identification!! Always ID your target before your train the barrel on it)
If you fear you may be flinching, load a charge in the pan, but do not load the barrel with anything. Place a dime on the end of your muzzle (or even better test, on the top of your front sight if it is filed flat enough. Octogon barrels are not as effective for this test as round barrels), take your position and squeeze. If the dime falls off the barrel you most likely are flinching. No one wants to use up flints and 4f powder on dry firing practice. You may want to try it with the flint removed and no powder.
Again, just a suggestion and some tips for those who may be interested. I have had very good results with my Lyman. Much better than I was hoping. I am consistently getting 3" groups at 100 yards. I do not know what would be required for getting into a competition but I am very happy with the consistency. Of course treating each shot exactly the same is very important for consistency. As an old habit, I clean the barrel very well after each shot and even let things cool down between shots. While hunting, your kill shot should be the only shot fired all day so if there no other shot to better predict you circumstances, make it your first cold shot. Always keep range data also. Man that is so important. You cant remember everything and humidity/temp/wind/clouds/sun/rain all plays an important part to the experience.
I know most kill shots are between 30 and 70 yards where extreme accuracy is not completely essential. But, I really enjoy getting to know exactly how my rifle will react in any given situation. With all the nutty things and nutty people there are in this world, (Michigan for example) you never know how accurate you may have to be!
I plan on doing a lot of ballistic work with my Lyman. I will post as much of my findings when feasible, but attaining consistency is really on the part the each individual shooter.
I used to be into competing big time. I did a lot of high power and big bore stuff at long range. Having said that, I have been to the range 5 times with my Lyman great plains 50Cal. I think alot of the basics stay the same even with the flash. In the military they teach BRAS. Breath, Relax, Aim, Squeeze. With this technique, be extremely focused on your front sight. Your rear sight should be in view just enough to make sure the front sight is seated correctly in the notch, but the focus on the front sight has to be sharp as can be. While focused on the front sight you will notice it moves in a triange in cadance with your breating. Pay attention to where you front sight is in relation to your target at the point of your exhale. You are at you most still point at the end of your exhale just before the transition to your inhale (Don't hold your breathe however! you will shake) Let the round fly at the exhale where your triangle is at the point of center mass on your target. Your view of the target should be blurry your view of the front sight should be crystal clear.
(don't mistake this for proper target identification!! Always ID your target before your train the barrel on it)
If you fear you may be flinching, load a charge in the pan, but do not load the barrel with anything. Place a dime on the end of your muzzle (or even better test, on the top of your front sight if it is filed flat enough. Octogon barrels are not as effective for this test as round barrels), take your position and squeeze. If the dime falls off the barrel you most likely are flinching. No one wants to use up flints and 4f powder on dry firing practice. You may want to try it with the flint removed and no powder.
Again, just a suggestion and some tips for those who may be interested. I have had very good results with my Lyman. Much better than I was hoping. I am consistently getting 3" groups at 100 yards. I do not know what would be required for getting into a competition but I am very happy with the consistency. Of course treating each shot exactly the same is very important for consistency. As an old habit, I clean the barrel very well after each shot and even let things cool down between shots. While hunting, your kill shot should be the only shot fired all day so if there no other shot to better predict you circumstances, make it your first cold shot. Always keep range data also. Man that is so important. You cant remember everything and humidity/temp/wind/clouds/sun/rain all plays an important part to the experience.
I know most kill shots are between 30 and 70 yards where extreme accuracy is not completely essential. But, I really enjoy getting to know exactly how my rifle will react in any given situation. With all the nutty things and nutty people there are in this world, (Michigan for example) you never know how accurate you may have to be!
I plan on doing a lot of ballistic work with my Lyman. I will post as much of my findings when feasible, but attaining consistency is really on the part the each individual shooter.
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