The first poor boys

[oldwood]

Also , not to be ignored , an older basic gun would be given to a young person to use and abuse. What would be the sense of giving a fancy rifle to a beginner. Even in modern times , I was giver a lesser rifle to use instead of Dad's "better" guns.

 

[excess650]

That "Adam Angstadt" appears to be a re-stock of an old barrel. Note that it was pictured as percussion, and then converted back to flint. The single lock bolt indicates that it was built in the percussion period, and Adam died in 1812, PRIOR TO PERCUSSION. Besides that, the signature seems to have been enhanced. If that is what you aspire to, have at it.

 

[ekettenburg]

Couple if things if I may:

(1) That is very definitely a recycled Angstadt barrel. Adam Angstadt did not stock that piece imho. However, it was probably restocked ca. 1820s-1830s somewhere in the same approximate region.

(2) The "aged" Lehigh rifle that will be auctioned at Morphy's was not made by Shawn Webster. I made it ca. 1999-2001 and when I sold it, it was sold as an "as new" schimmel/barn gun with a very simple finish. Over the years it has passed through various owners who have aged it and added a box, cheek star and bored out the barrel to a larger caliber. I like it better now than when I built it!

(3) I don't know when either Rich or Chuck began assigning the 'gray horse' translation to the concept of a schimmel, but Rich told me many times that he originally started using the term (and sometimes Rich said he originated it, and sometimes he said Chuck originated it!) as a reference to these rifles being really plain and quickly-stocked, almost 'folksy;' he was reminded of the 19th century woodcarvings of Wilhelm Schimmel which were likewise carved out quickly but competently out of necessity (i.e. to buy more alchohol!) and Rich was very familiar with those. Between the two of them, both great guys, one of them or both of them came up with the term and it stuck. I don't think it dates any earlier than the 1970s or maaaaaaybe the late 60s - as applied to plain functional rifles.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The "aged" Lehigh rifle that will be auctioned at Morphy's was not made by Shawn Webster. I made it ca. 1999-2001 and when I sold it, it was sold as an "as new" schimmel/barn gun with a very simple finish. Over the years it has passed through various owners who have aged it and added a box, cheek star and bored out the barrel to a larger caliber. I like it better now than when I built it!

Good grief! Sorry about that, Eric!

The funny thing is, that rifle is actually listed twice on the Contemporary Makers Blogspot. The first listing was right here: Rifle by Shawn Webster That was the information I was going on regarding the rifle's maker.

I wanted to post a picture on this thread, so looked it up again and the link I put in my post (Rifle at Morphy Auctions) was the first one I found. I thought the rifle in the photos looked a bit lighter in color, but I thought it was just my faulty memory. I did not read "the fine print," which explained the rifle's origins and "chain of custody," including an explicit statement by Shawn Webster that you originally made the rifle.

So, I apologize for my error, and appreciate the correction! As I stated previously, I find the rifle very appealing. I like the patchbox, too, although I recognize that it was added later. I think this is the only rifle I know of that has a covered patchbox and no buttplate.

Regarding the "gray horse" allusion, that was mentioned in a paper by Mr. Dixon entitled Chuck's Notes: The 'Schimmel' and its Culture. He stated that definition was from a dictionary, listed as a Dutch word, ..."chiefly South Africa," which I guess would be Afrikaans. He stated that the Pennsylvania Dutch (actually of German descent) use the term schimmel to describe "... not something of less quality but something that cost less." He developed the "gray horse" theme as an analogy.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[longcruise]

Gave it some thought and figured out where I had read it. It's chapter 27, page 169 of The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle. There is more to it than the portion below but it's impractical to include the entire chapter.

 

[Jakeytoo]

Just for fun, I looked up the translation for schimmel, from German, Dutch and Afrikaan. All literally mean the same, mold or fungus.

However, knowing words get corrupted over time, a similar word in German ( Deutch ) is schmucklos, which means plain.

Now bear with me, you may say they don’t sound real close. Speaking from experience, the Thai word farang, means foreign, however the origin of the word appears to come from the English foreign. That is how it has been explained to me by my wife ( Thai ).

 

[rich pierce]

A Lancaster smooth rifle with no patchbox and probably first made without the sideplate inlays. I could also call it a plain buck and ball gun. Is it a barn gun or a schimmel? I see it as a gun made for militia use from old parts, stocked up in a leftover, dragged from the woodpile blank. It has probably been shortened 4-6”. That explains the poor nosecap. There’s an extra inlet for a thimble that’s no longer there.

 

[excess650]

Rich,
Does that "gun" have a rear sight? Carving around the entry pipe?

'Parts gun" seems an apt description, iron rammer and all, and with nicely executed tang carving at that!

 

[rich pierce]

Rich,
Does that "gun" have a rear sight? Carving around the entry pipe?

'Parts gun" seems an apt description, iron rammer and all, and with nicely executed tang carving at that!

Yes, it has a rear sight. I’m not convinced the iron rammer is original to the gun. In practice it’s too short to clean without a long tow worm. No carving around the entry pipe. The carving is most like that of Jacob Metzger in my view.

 

[Notchy Bob]

What a great old gun, @rich pierce ! Thanks for posting.

I see a perforation for a sling swivel in the forward boss of the trigger guard. Is there any provision for a sling swivel on the forend?

Notchy Bob

 

[rich pierce]

What a great old gun, @rich pierce ! Thanks for posting.

I see a perforation for a sling swivel in the forward boss of the trigger guard. Is there any provision for a sling swivel on the forend?

Notchy Bob

The darn gun is in storage but I will check in a week or two, Bob. I think that where the missing thimble inlet is, there may have been a swivel pin. I will check for a missing underlug.

 

[springfield art]

I know well that what we call Poor boy style surfaced around 1800 but there had to be a precursor. could it be possible that people of low income were using brass mounted rifles with no patch box, nose cap, and or side plate in the 1770s

Iron was common in the mountains; brass was more costly. That's why Iron was the commonly used trim material; iron barrels, etc. Early iron foundries were common in the earliest settled areas.

 

[springfield art]

These two rifles, from the Contemporary Makers blogspot, are modern-made, but I think may illustrate the idea that @StarnesRowan has presented to us.

This one was made in 2009 by by well-known maker, Jack Brooks:

View attachment 92276

Mr. Brooks called it a "frontier rifle," something that might have been assembled on the frontier from recycled parts. No buttplate, sideplate, or entry pipes. Lock and ramrod pipes from an English trade gun, barrel and guard from an American rifle, and a silver wrist escutcheon from a fine French gun:

View attachment 92278

The next rifle is a Lehigh-styled schimmel by Shawn Webster, another well-respected present-day builder:

View attachment 92279

No buttplate, sideplate, entry pipe, or nosecap, but it does have an iron-lidded patchbox with a whimsical "Allentown Indian" engraving:

View attachment 92280

There is a lot to like about this rifle, and I find the mix of iron and brass furniture interesting. I could do without the faked damage and "repairs," though:

View attachment 92281

View attachment 92282

I don't own either of these rifles, although I sure would like to. I think there may be a trend among today's builders to work with this concept of mixed parts and rustic construction. I find it appealing.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Be cool to see what people come up with!

 

[54ball]

I know well that what we call Poor boy style surfaced around 1800 but there had to be a precursor. could it be possible that people of low income were using brass mounted rifles with no patch box, nose cap, and or side plate in the 1770s

I have been down this road. Been there, done this....
The truth is you are going about it backwards. One could assume that there has to be an earlier "origin" of a type that existed in 1800-1810. The truth is maybe not.

Lets look at some 20th Century artifacts. Say automobiles. Lets start with two Chevrolets, a 1959 and a 1949. We assume there has to be some kind of transition from the 49 to the 59. All we have to go by are some mixed parts, a Buick fender we think is from 1953 and a Plymouth bumper we think is from 1955. We also have some vague stories about servicing these cars or trips taken in them.
Do you think what we come up with will look anything like a 1955 Chevy?

Just because some guy builds a contraption he calls a 1955 Chevy in 2021; a thing with a 49 front, a '59 roof and 59 tail fins with the cat eye taillights, is this really a '55 Chevy? No it's not. What it is a fantasy. It's fantasy built with not enough info to be a true representative.
In a sense, it's futile.

There's market for this 2021 49/59 thing. It's driven by 2021 economics. I want there to be...this type of gun because it's cheap or cheaper than one of those so called "fancy" guns.

What we need to do is research and go by what we have, what actually exists instead of looking for the "missing link".
If you really want a historical gun, the answer is to study historical guns...really study them, the makers and the regions.
What you will find is actually more fascinating than what somebody makes up.
Here's some clues for study....
Start with Trade Guns...
Start with the German/Moravian immigrants
Study the early 1st generation builders
Study the migration routes...Great Wagon Road
Study the deerskin trade...
Study the class structure of the period
Study the guilds and standard of craftsmanship.
Study the industry of England...English trade rifles and how they copied American rifles and thus American rifles copied them.
Study Colonial Industry
Key in on a particular areas of interest...say the second or third generation builders of
This is pretty obvious but study existing guns.
What you will find is all this stuff interconnects like a spider web.
The thing is there are "plainer" rifles all throughout the period but they are not necessarily what you assume they are.
Here's a key fact...The rifle was a Middle Class arm. It was an essential tool like a tractor or truck today. In other words they were not cheap as lives/livelihood depended on them.
I find the frontier gunsmiths of Pa, Virginia. The second Generation "farmer gunsmiths of Tennessee, NC, and SC are fascinating. The Bulls, The Beans, The Russels, Thomas Simpson,..there's many, many more. The The Cumberland School, Overthemountainmen, Watauga, You'll find these guys have links to the Lauks, the Becks, Dickert and the PA styles and makers....
It's an adventure....
Start with the books,
Go to shows,
Wallace Gusler who has studied this all his life when asked, " What is the most accurate history of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle?" his reply was " There is none."

 

[springfield art]

I have been down this road. Been there, done this....
The truth is you are going about it backwards. One could assume that there has to be an earlier "origin" of a type that existed in 1800-1810. The truth is maybe not.

Lets look at some 20th Century artifacts. Say automobiles. Lets start with two Chevrolets, a 1959 and a 1949. We assume there has to be some kind of transition from the 49 to the 59. All we have to go by are some mixed parts, a Buick fender we think is from 1953 and a Plymouth bumper we think is from 1955. We also have some vague stories about servicing these cars or trips taken in them.
Do you think what we come up with will look anything like a 1955 Chevy?

Just because some guy builds a contraption he calls a 1955 Chevy in 2021; a thing with a 49 front, a '59 roof and 59 tail fins with the cat eye taillights, is this really a '55 Chevy? No it's not. What it is a fantasy. It's fantasy built with not enough info to be a true representative.
In a sense, it's futile.

There's market for this 2021 49/59 thing. It's driven by 2021 economics. I want there to be...this type of gun because it's cheap or cheaper than one of those so called "fancy" guns.

What we need to do is research and go by what we have, what actually exists instead of looking for the "missing link".
If you really want a historical gun, the answer is to study historical guns...really study them, the makers and the regions.
What you will find is actually more fascinating than what somebody makes up.
Here's some clues for study....
Start with Trade Guns...
Start with the German/Moravian immigrants
Study the early 1st generation builders
Study the migration routes...Great Wagon Road
Study the deerskin trade...
Study the class structure of the period
Study the guilds and standard of craftsmanship.
Study the industry of England...English trade rifles and how they copied American rifles and thus American rifles copied them.
Study Colonial Industry
Key in on a particular areas of interest...say the second or third generation builders of
This is pretty obvious but study existing guns.
What you will find is all this stuff interconnects like a spider web.
The thing is there are "plainer" rifles all throughout the period but they are not necessarily what you assume they are.
Here's a key fact...The rifle was a Middle Class arm. It was an essential tool like a tractor or truck today. In other words they were not cheap as lives/livelihood depended on them.
I find the frontier gunsmiths of Pa, Virginia. The second Generation "farmer gunsmiths of Tennessee, NC, and SC are fascinating. The Bulls, The Beans, The Russels, Thomas Simpson,..there's many, many more. The The Cumberland School, Overthemountainmen, Watauga, You'll find these guys have links to the Lauks, the Becks, Dickert and the PA styles and makers....
It's an adventure....
Start with the books,
Go to shows,
Wallace Gusler who has studied this all his life when asked, " What is the most accurate history of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle?" his reply was " There is none."

Well, if ol' Wally says it, that's good enough for me! Thanks for this interesting entry.

 

[springfield art]

I have been down this road. Been there, done this....
The truth is you are going about it backwards. One could assume that there has to be an earlier "origin" of a type that existed in 1800-1810. The truth is maybe not.

Lets look at some 20th Century artifacts. Say automobiles. Lets start with two Chevrolets, a 1959 and a 1949. We assume there has to be some kind of transition from the 49 to the 59. All we have to go by are some mixed parts, a Buick fender we think is from 1953 and a Plymouth bumper we think is from 1955. We also have some vague stories about servicing these cars or trips taken in them.
Do you think what we come up with will look anything like a 1955 Chevy?

Just because some guy builds a contraption he calls a 1955 Chevy in 2021; a thing with a 49 front, a '59 roof and 59 tail fins with the cat eye taillights, is this really a '55 Chevy? No it's not. What it is a fantasy. It's fantasy built with not enough info to be a true representative.
In a sense, it's futile.

There's market for this 2021 49/59 thing. It's driven by 2021 economics. I want there to be...this type of gun because it's cheap or cheaper than one of those so called "fancy" guns.

What we need to do is research and go by what we have, what actually exists instead of looking for the "missing link".
If you really want a historical gun, the answer is to study historical guns...really study them, the makers and the regions.
What you will find is actually more fascinating than what somebody makes up.
Here's some clues for study....
Start with Trade Guns...
Start with the German/Moravian immigrants
Study the early 1st generation builders
Study the migration routes...Great Wagon Road
Study the deerskin trade...
Study the class structure of the period
Study the guilds and standard of craftsmanship.
Study the industry of England...English trade rifles and how they copied American rifles and thus American rifles copied them.
Study Colonial Industry
Key in on a particular areas of interest...say the second or third generation builders of
This is pretty obvious but study existing guns.
What you will find is all this stuff interconnects like a spider web.
The thing is there are "plainer" rifles all throughout the period but they are not necessarily what you assume they are.
Here's a key fact...The rifle was a Middle Class arm. It was an essential tool like a tractor or truck today. In other words they were not cheap as lives/livelihood depended on them.
I find the frontier gunsmiths of Pa, Virginia. The second Generation "farmer gunsmiths of Tennessee, NC, and SC are fascinating. The Bulls, The Beans, The Russels, Thomas Simpson,..there's many, many more. The The Cumberland School, Overthemountainmen, Watauga, You'll find these guys have links to the Lauks, the Becks, Dickert and the PA styles and makers....
It's an adventure....
Start with the books,
Go to shows,
Wallace Gusler who has studied this all his life when asked, " What is the most accurate history of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle?" his reply was " There is none."

I'm gonna try to get to the rifle show Oct. 1st, It's Morgantown, Pa., I think.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There’s an extra inlet for a thimble that’s no longer there.View attachment 92374View attachment 92378

I would venture to guess that the missing thimble held also the forward sling swivel since the trigger guard was drilled for what was likely a rear sling swivel.

LD

 

[ekettenburg]

Possibly, although it's also possible that the guard was recycled from an earlier rifle which utilized sling hangers and when re-used for this later piece, the hole in the guard was already there. I have definitely seen this on 'parts guns:' guard drilled for a hanger, but no evidence at all that there ever was accommodation for a forward hanger.

 

[ord sgt]

I think as stated above that Dixon either coined the term or popularized it. Wish i could remember where I saw it written by him.

It was written by Mr. Dixon and used in his book "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle".
I bought that book and used it to help me while building my first longrifle from parts. Still do reference it once in a while.

 

[longcruise]

It was written by Mr. Dixon and used in his book "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle".
I bought that book and used it to help me while building my first longrifle from parts. Still do reference it once in a while.

Yes, see post #25 in this thread.