The Hawken Rifle

[Sully]

What are the differences between the J&S Hawken and the S Hawken rifles ? I have a S Hawken and im curious about this. Looking at pictures does not seem to help me.

 

[wattlebuster]

the J&S was made by Jake an Samuel Hawken an the S Hawken was made by just Samuel himself

 

[Pete Gaimari]

hotoSmile:

 

[Sully]

That difference is,shall we say,Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. I would like to know the physical differences in the rifles styles.Thank you .

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[paulvallandigham]

Sully: I am by no means an " expert " on the Hawken rifles, but I did a lot of reading about them 20 years ago when I decided I had to have a L-handed Hawken rifle for my own use. The Hawken shop was making guns for many years, and I think for the most part, they evolved over the years, rather than there being a distinctive Style difference between a "J&S" gun, and an " S. Hawken" gun. There seems to be a gradual change in the shape of the trigger guards used, after the 1840s, for instance. But, that was long after Jake passed on. But as to barrel lengths, diameters, tapers, lock shapes, positions, shape of stock, there are minor variations throughout the shop's history, and I have never read any of the true Experts ascribe any of these characteristics to J&S, vs. S. Hawken rifles.

If you Google Hawken rifles, you will find any number of sites on the net, that will show you collections, such as those in the Winchester- Cody museum, and other museums. The National Firearms Museum, in the NRA building in Fairfax, VA. also has a collection or original Hawkens.

And, there are books out that show most, if not all, of the known Hawken rifles for you to study. These books are in limited edition, and very expensive, but you might be able to view one through your local library Inter-library loan service. :thumbsup: Don Stith, who is a sometimes member here, is one of the leading experts on Hawkens, and has his own website.
http://www.donstith.com/hawken_squirrel.html

Take a look. :hatsoff:

 

[Sully]

Here are a few more photos.

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[Sully]

Thanks for the info Paul,I appreciate it. I have looked at a lot of web sites and also at Don Stith's site. I have been told that my rifle would NOT fall into the fur trade era.I was trying to find out what,if anything, would allow a J&S but not a S Hawken rifle from being period correct,as far as style.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

A real beauty.

Thanks for the photos.

 

[ratpatrol]

Sully,
Contact the Montana State Historical Society. They have a couple of Bridger's rifles and numerous other. If you have time take a trip as they are on display. You might also contact the Washington State Historical Society- they had a few back when I did my internship in the early-mid 90's.

 

[David W.]

You can also visit Buffalo Bill's museum in Cody, Wyoming. Google it. You should go there in person some day, really. If you do go, plan on it taking two days because it's that huge!

Being near the Yellostone National park, you actually will want to be there for at least a week. Just don't do what I have seen greenhorns do on TV and try to pet a buffalo. :rotf:

 

[shootrj2003]

In defence of wattlebuster,not everyone is as knowledgeable as you or I or Wattlebuster may be and what seems to be a simplistic answer may be just what many people need or want to know,many guys just starting out don't even know who the Hawkins were or that there were two of them.
nice outfit and rifle

 

[Pete Gaimari]

In defence of wattlebuster,not everyone is as knowledgeable as you or I or Wattlebuster may be and what seems to be a simplistic answer may be just what many people need or want to know,many guys just starting out don't even know who the Hawkins were or that there were two of them.
nice outfit and rifle

I have to bust you on this one......Hawkens. :wink:

 

[Captjoel]

I hate to be the one to bust you fella's, but it is HAWKEN. No S on the end. :v I have been working on a copy of a Sam Hawken rifle in the style carried by Jim Bridger. I've got to tell you it is one brute of a halfstock! When it comes to the guns built by both Sam and Jake, you will never find two rifles that are alike. All of the J&S guns were built prior to Jakes death in 1849 in the chorlera epidemic. All of the later work by Sam went from that date up into the later 19th century between his shops in St. Louis and Denver. Sam tried to retire around 1861, but I believe he may have kept a hand in the business for a while. He had several partners. One newer "refinement" you will find only on S. Hawken rifles is the "slant breech". This improvement was only used on the later guns. I'm far from an expert pertaining to this style of rifle. I have handled a few original specimens as well as viewing a couple more in cases. When ever I build a rifle, I like to study as much as I can about the gunsmith who's work I am trying to copy.

 

[LaBonte]

One newer "refinement" you will find only on S. Hawken rifles is the "slant breech". This improvement was only used on the later guns.

Actually that is no longer true - there is at least one J & S Hawken mtn rifle with an early slant breech.

But as to barrel lengths, diameters, tapers, lock shapes, positions, shape of stock, there are minor variations throughout the shop's history, and I have never read any of the true Experts ascribe any of these characteristics to J&S, vs. S. Hawken rifles

Actually John Baird did a pretty good job of describing the distinct differences between the two as well as the similarities in his book Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice.


Anyway overall it's tough to go into what is in fact a fairly complicated subject - complicated not only by the differences between the S Hawken and the J & S Hawkens, but as Paul noted there are variations even with the same eras. The typical Sam Hawken's are generally more alike with less overall variations, but even so there are some major differences between late S Hawkens and early ones - actually there are two eras of S Hawken St Louis made rifles 1822-25 and 1849-1859 and then there are his successors who may have continued to use the S Hawken stamp.

It's late (or early dependent on your viewpoint - 4:32AM MST to be exact) so I'm not up to doing more than offering this bit of info for now, but will attempt as time permits to point out the major differences between the two eras and then maybe add some info on the variations within the eras i.e a very early J & S Hawken is different than a later model, etc.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I hate to be the one to bust you fella's, but it is HAWKEN. No S on the end. :v I have been working on a copy of a Sam Hawken rifle in the style carried by Jim Bridger. I've got to tell you it is one brute of a halfstock! When it comes to the guns built by both Sam and Jake, you will never find two rifles that are alike. All of the J&S guns were built prior to Jakes death in 1849 in the chorlera epidemic. All of the later work by Sam went from that date up into the later 19th century between his shops in St. Louis and Denver. Sam tried to retire around 1861, but I believe he may have kept a hand in the business for a while. He had several partners. One newer "refinement" you will find only on S. Hawken rifles is the "slant breech". This improvement was only used on the later guns. I'm far from an expert pertaining to this style of rifle. I have handled a few original specimens as well as viewing a couple more in cases. When ever I build a rifle, I like to study as much as I can about the gunsmith who's work I am trying to copy.

I have to bust you too. He was talking about the two brothers. Not the gun. The Hawken's. :grin:

 

[Sully]

Thanks for the responses. After reading your post about Baird's book,I went and borrowed it from a friend.After reading through it, I believe the S Hawken rifle was of late manufacture,after 1840, and would not be HC for rendezvous.Especially mine. My rifle has the slant breech,hour glass tang,Gibbons style lock and the nose cap is held on by a screw. None the less I love this rifle and it shoots great.

 

[Captjoel]

Thanks Labonte for setting me straight! I was going by Bairds book regarding the slant breech. I am sure a lot more info has surfaced over the many years since that book came out. When it comes to the Hawken rifle I have to admit, it has been very hard for me to first appreciate just what it is. I have always been an early flintlock PA\Kentucky fan. Fullstocks with 4 pc patchboxes and all the trimmings. A Hawken was always just an over glorified plains rifle. Then a friend had this set of parts laying around in his shop since the early 1970's. It included a very robust 1 1\4 across the flats Bill Large barrel. I bought the box of pieces from him and went to work on it around the first of Oct. last year. To make this long story short I just want to say I have learned a whole new outlook and respect for this historic rifle. I have to commend all of those who build copies of them today. They are not an easy build. I finished my rifle just last week and took it out to the range just over the weekend. Holy smokes!! What a tack driver! As heavy as that twelve pounder was.....it held steady as a rock and was very pleasant to shoot.

 

[Captjoel]

I'd like to add that shooting my 54 Bridger Hawken is quite a different experience from anything ever shot before. I can really feel the power behind this thing. It is kind of hard to describe, like the mighty Zuess wielding a lightning bolt! Ya, that comes pretty close. :wink: :grin:

 

[HatchetJaque]

We need some pics of your newly completed build!

 

[Sully]

I too would like to see photos of your rifle. I named my .54 Hawken "Thor" the ball is his mighty Hammer