The locks for the Northwest or "Trade" guns

[TDM]

I think that different people here have different guns come to mind when the phrase “English trade gun” is used. It’s as though there was one unchanged type for 100 years. Please specify when you comment. Type G? Wilson low end fowler? NE trade gun? Chiefs grade War of 1812 era? As an example, without specifics, arguing that the lock needs a tombstone fox doesn’t make sense in many cases.

Rich, would an early English trade gun, 1740’s, have had a sitting Fox on the lock plate? I don’t know the dates they were used.

 

[springfield art]

I've read here that the "Lott" marked lock on my Gostomsky Trade Gun is not of the best quality, but I doubt that any of the excellent locks on sale would just "drop in"; it's not like replacing a Lyman GPR lock or some other standard fitting. Mine has the little Fox and two more on the breech.

I don’t think any one pre stamps them, since they are sold to go on different styles of gun.
Track of the wolf sells the stamps
They may offer the service cheaper then buying the stamps.

Interesting it states in "For Trade & Treaty" that many of the trade guns had counterfeit stamps on them! Some things never change! Like a Belgian maker would put London marks to 'fool the marks', so to speak!

 

[rich pierce]

Rich, would an early English trade gun, 1740’s, have had a sitting Fox on the lock plate? I don’t know the dates they were used.

In For Trade and Treaty there are Northwest guns with the deep trigger guard with the sitting fox on the lock. These below have that combination: Northwest gun, deep trigger guard, fox stamp on the lock.
Willets 1789-1812
Barnett flintlock c. 1820
Barnet c. 1815
Barnet 1838
Barnett c. 1876
Wilson 1824
Wheeler 1814-1819
Chance 1840 some obliterated stamp
Tryon (American) NW gun 1843-1859 has a bird stamp
Belgian NW gun c. 1852 fox on lock
Belgian NW gun 1858 fox on lock

Bumford Type G 1750-1760: no fox; round faced English lock no bridle

Wilson fowler imported for gifts by Sir William Johnson 1765-1780, cast brass furniture has no fox on round-faced English lock

Willets chief grade fowler, cast brass guard, no fox on round faced English lock.

Other sources match. The fox and/or tombstone stamps go hand in hand with NW trade guns having the deep, surface-mounted, strap metal guard and it is not found elsewhere.

HOWEVER early NW guns by Wilson and by Grice in The Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade: Firearms of the Fur Trade have the strap metal guard but no fox stamp. These guns are dated 1750s-1770. So the fox stamp was not universal on early NW trade guns.

 

[TDM]

In For Trade and Treaty there are Northwest guns with the deep trigger guard with the sitting fox on the lock. These below have that combination: Northwest gun, deep trigger guard, fox stamp on the lock.
Willets 1789-1812
Barnett flintlock c. 1820
Barnet c. 1815
Barnet 1838
Barnett c. 1876
Wilson 1824
Wheeler 1814-1819
Chance 1840 some obliterated stamp
Tryon (American) NW gun 1843-1859 has a bird stamp
Belgian NW gun c. 1852 fox on lock
Belgian NW gun 1858 fox on lock

Bumford Type G 1750-1760: no fox; round faced English lock no bridle

Wilson fowler imported for gifts by Sir William Johnson 1765-1780, cast brass furniture has no fox on round-faced English lock

Willets chief grade fowler, cast brass guard, no fox on round faced English lock.

Other sources match. The fox and/or tombstone stamps go hand in hand with NW trade guns having the deep, surface-mounted, strap metal guard and it is not found elsewhere.

HOWEVER early NE guns by Wilson and by Grice in The Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade: Firearms of the Fur Trade have the strap metal guard but no fox stamp. These guns are dated 1750s-1770. So the fox stamp was not universal on early NW trade guns.

Excellent information! Thanks very much.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Rich, would an early English trade gun, 1740’s, have had a sitting Fox on the lock plate? I don’t know the dates they were used.

No. It's a post 1800 thang.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Sorry to disagree BUT --- there is NO "only correct lock... .... " as the Birmingham Trade made down to a price and there are all sorts of variations --- not forgetting that they often imported locks and parts "in the white" from places like Liege.
Please tell me where you got the PROOF that your staement is true.

I'm sorry , but it's against the rules to disagree with me.

 

[Captjoel]

A very late 1870 lock used by HBC. I know that not too many here would be interested in such a late era gun but........

 

[Captjoel]

The rifle that this lock is from sports a 30" 24 gage (58 cal.) barrel and is original length.

 

[Captjoel]

I have a Bob Roller lock that would make a fine choice to use for a copy of one of these late English trade guns. Just needs a little bit of cosmetic tweeking.

 

[Notchy Bob]

A very late 1870 lock used by HBC. I know that not too many here would be interested in such a late era gun but........

I'm interested. The "late" muzzleloaders, to me, are at least as interesting as the "early" ones. That lock with the round tail and reinforced cock represents the last phase in flintlock evolution. It is a very strong and practical design. The guns on which these were used were sort of a last holdout. They are still Northwest guns, they load from the muzzle and detonate the charge with a spark. What's not to like?

People in the Canadian wilderness were still shooting these at least into the 1890's, and likely later. My hypothesis is that muzzleloaders held on there (and in many other places) because they were simple, versatile, and inexpensive to shoot, but flintlocks continued in use in the far north because of the cold. A touch-hole that leaks powder is considered a bad thing nowadays, but I've read multiple references to "self-priming" flintlocks in the period literature. If you think about it, a muzzleloader that primes itself saves a step in loading. No cap lock will do that for you. I have never hunted or shot in that kind of extreme cold, but I expect little percussion caps might be hard to manipulate with numb fingers.

I would like to see locks of this type back in production. That might give me an excuse to get another Northwest gun.

Thanks for showing it!

Notchy Bob

 

[BillinOregon]

Captjoel, yes, thank you for posting these images. That's a very fine example of a late NW gun. Do you own and shoot this specimen?

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The rifle that this lock is from sports a 30" 24 gage (58 cal.) barrel and is original length.

That is a gun , not a rifle. And, it is a very nice example of a late trade gun.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have a Bob Roller lock that would make a fine choice to use for a copy of one of these late English trade guns. Just needs a little bit of cosmetic tweeking.

That's a fine lock. But, It would be excellent on a trade rifle, not a trade gun. The trade guns in the 1860-70 and past period were leaning towards cap locks that look a lot like Enfield musket locks, although they seem to have sold them with flintlocks into the 1890's.

 

[Rob M.]

The " Circle Fox " is a Hudsons Bay Co. stamp . If the stamp is not present then it is not a HBCo gun then . The earliest known HBCo NW trade gun in existence is the 1751 Wilson and the lock is stamped with the circle fox .

Excellent information! Thanks very much.

 

[Rob M.]

Wilson 1751, Sandwell 1777 , Wilson 1780 . Sitting fox present on all three . The early stamp is called the tombstone fox as the old stamps the bottom does not show on the uneven lock surface . Old style hand punch

 

[TDM]

@Rob M. , I know there were a variety of barrel lengths, but was there any one length that was more prevalent?

 

[Rob M.]

From the makers ... 36" , 42" , 48" . pre 1699 they made 54" . records after 1781 were lost destroyed but shorter barrel lengths became poplar during the western push ....horse back . Each year it is back and forth for the most produced , most popular barrel length between the 48" and 42" ....36" is always made in the least amounts , least popular . All this is pre 1782 info

 

[TDM]

From the makers ... 36" , 42" , 48" . pre 1699 they made 54" . records after 1781 were lost destroyed but shorter barrel lengths became poplar during the western push ....horse back . Each year it is back and forth for the most produced , most popular barrel length between the 48" and 42" ....36" is always made in the least amounts , least popular . All this is pre 1782 info

So a 44” barrel on an early (1740’s) English would be appropriate?

 

[Rob M.]

Rich, would an early English trade gun, 1740’s, have had a sitting Fox on the lock plate? I don’t know the dates they were used.

Only if it was a HBCo trade gun would it have the sitting fox , for instance a Type G / Carolina Gun would not , obviously , check out the Williams Gun , probably 1720s early 1730s , English trade gun ( and gorgeous !) . HBCo guns were most likely never even seen in present day US until after the F&I war .... And cast serpents were introduced in 1749

 

[Rob M.]

So a 44” barrel on an early (1740’s) English would be appropriate?

Well , first of all get what you want . Its your gun and make it to suit you . One of my favorite original Fusil de chasse guns has a 39" barrel , not an original length ever made . There is do little know about early trade guns but they all tend to have long barrels so anything shorter than 42" is going to look off or odd , wrong . It appears that , but I would not swear to it , from the few survivors and from grave finds , that Carolina Guns had 46" barrels when new