Poor Mel's Dad - regardless of your view of the Vietnam War, you can't fault a Dad for wanting to keep his kids out of something like that. Anyway, if that was his reason for emigrating it was a waste of time, as Australia had the draft then too. Tens of thousands of Aussie and New Zealand conscripts went to Vietnam and hundreds died (in fact, before the 1982 Falklands War the most recent Victoria Cross was awarded to an Aussie in 'Nam, I think around 1969). I lived in New Zealand as a boy in the 60s and when we emigrated back to the UK in late '67 the ship was stuffed full of young Italian-Australians, all taking advantage of dual citizenship to return to the mother country to do their military service there and avoid Vietnam.
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The movie "Patriot"....
- Thread starter BLAHMAN
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Enlisted in Feb. 64 on my birthday, right out of high school Spent 66, 67, and part of 68 in Nam, Retired in 1969 :crackup: In April of 1970, was arrested by the FBI for failure to register for the Draft. your government at work, go figure. Federal Judge dropped charges with apology. Fibby's let me get my dd214, and didn't cuff me, Just took me to court. It was really kinda funny, and I'm kinda suprised someone didn't try an make it stick, because I never did register. So does that make me a draft dodger. :hmm:
Yep, your tax dollars at work. One hand don't know what the other hand is doing. Can't say as how that would make ya a draft dodger, a Patriot maybe.
Smoked & Joe,
what you have posted, Smoked is what i had
heard also. i did not mean to insinuate that Mel moved
to avoid the draft. it was the father that did the moving
and for the reason i stated. this just to clarify my position on Mel whom i have the greatest of respect.
snake-eyes
eace: eace: eace:
what you have posted, Smoked is what i had
heard also. i did not mean to insinuate that Mel moved
to avoid the draft. it was the father that did the moving
and for the reason i stated. this just to clarify my position on Mel whom i have the greatest of respect.
snake-eyes
eace: eace: eace:Returning to the theme of this thread, I was prompted to watch the movie again last night, and, looking carefully at that scene where Mel and his sons ambush the dastardly Brits, Mel really does seem to have a feel for the rifle and what's needed to aim and shoot it - contrast Billy Bob Thornton in the Alamo, which I've only seem once but I thought had his head flinched as far to the left as possible, certainly too far to aim it (though I think he was really firing the gun too, to give him credit).
I too noticed that about Billy Bob, but I let it slide. It did seem that Mel Gibson handled his flinter like an ol' pro. I think his rifle fit him...
I don't think Billy Bob's rifle fit him? It seemed to me that his trigger pull was too long, and that maybe the rifle was a bit heavy for him? "Course, only he could answer that. :hmm:
I don't think Billy Bob's rifle fit him? It seemed to me that his trigger pull was too long, and that maybe the rifle was a bit heavy for him? "Course, only he could answer that. :hmm:
Huntinfool
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I've played that first shot over and over again in slow motion. Mel didn't flinch one bit and I'd say that the soldier he was aiming at was dead on arrival.
There's was an article in Muzzle Loader I believe about how Mark Baker and Frank House trained Mel and the young fellows how to shoot. It was quite interesting!
One of my favorite movies! :redthumb:
YMH&OS,
Chuck
Guest
Snake-eyes,
Yep, I knew what you meant. Hope it didn't sound like I was criticizing anyone. Can't blame his dad at all.
I graduated from HS in '64, enlisted in '66, went to USAF Airborne Nav school for a year, went to the Philippines in '67, volunteered for Nam and got there in Jan '68. We must be the same age. I will be 59 this year.
Bill of the 45th Parallel,
I was drafted in the Army while in USAF boot camp. But I went in the service on a delayed enlistment program. So I had some time in grade when drafted. ha! I have no idea what my parents did with the draft notice. I wonder if the Feds are looking for me? :crackup:
Yep, I knew what you meant. Hope it didn't sound like I was criticizing anyone. Can't blame his dad at all.
I graduated from HS in '64, enlisted in '66, went to USAF Airborne Nav school for a year, went to the Philippines in '67, volunteered for Nam and got there in Jan '68. We must be the same age. I will be 59 this year.
Bill of the 45th Parallel,
I was drafted in the Army while in USAF boot camp. But I went in the service on a delayed enlistment program. So I had some time in grade when drafted. ha! I have no idea what my parents did with the draft notice. I wonder if the Feds are looking for me? :crackup:
These stories of draft mismanagement resonate through history, and not just in the US. My grandfather came from generations of soldiers and fought in the British Army in the First World War, enlisting aged 18 in 1915 and going into the reserve in 1919. He followed his father into an elite cavalry regiment, the 9th Lancers, but spent most of his three years on the western front as dismounted infantry, and was at the Battles of the Somme, Arras, Cambrai and, worst of all, Passchendaele('The most vile experience a man could possibly have', words from his autobiography). Miraculously he survived, unlike almost all his brothers, cousins and uncles. In 1939, as a youthful 42 year old, my age now!, he tried to enlist again but was turned down because only younger men were being taken at that point. Two years later he had the humiliating experience of being visited by the police wondering why he hadn't registered for conscription, the day after his house in Birmingham had been flattened by German bombing, my baby mother miraculously surviving under a mattress in the cellar (he'd spend the night before putting out incendiary bombs on his street). So much for the 'Blitz spirit.'
My other grandfather was a career Merchant Navy officer and was 'white-feathered' by a group of women on a train because he was of draft age but wearing civvies (MN officers traditionally changed from their uniforms when they went ashore). This was 1941, and he was travelling from Liverpool on leave after having survived one of the worst Atlantic convoys of the war, the only one ever to be turned back by weather and U-boats out of Halifax. His shipping line lost half their ships and a third of their men during the war, and the British MN as a whole had a far higher casualty rate than any of the armed services (over 30,000 killed out of about 100,000 serving). After that he always wore his uniform on leave. He survived too.
This is a bit long-winded and a long way off topic from The Patriot and muzzleloading but I guess goes to show that these kind of experiences are common fare (The Patriot is a pretty good stimulus for thinking how war isn't black and white, anyway!). But at least my grandfathers were in wars which had popular support, and I can't imagine what this was like for returning Vietnam veterans - not only bureaucracy but also hostility. It looks like a whole new generation are now going to have to go through this coming back from Iraq.
My other grandfather was a career Merchant Navy officer and was 'white-feathered' by a group of women on a train because he was of draft age but wearing civvies (MN officers traditionally changed from their uniforms when they went ashore). This was 1941, and he was travelling from Liverpool on leave after having survived one of the worst Atlantic convoys of the war, the only one ever to be turned back by weather and U-boats out of Halifax. His shipping line lost half their ships and a third of their men during the war, and the British MN as a whole had a far higher casualty rate than any of the armed services (over 30,000 killed out of about 100,000 serving). After that he always wore his uniform on leave. He survived too.
This is a bit long-winded and a long way off topic from The Patriot and muzzleloading but I guess goes to show that these kind of experiences are common fare (The Patriot is a pretty good stimulus for thinking how war isn't black and white, anyway!). But at least my grandfathers were in wars which had popular support, and I can't imagine what this was like for returning Vietnam veterans - not only bureaucracy but also hostility. It looks like a whole new generation are now going to have to go through this coming back from Iraq.
HistoryBuff
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I just saw this movie for the first time the other night. There was one scene where Mel Gibson is running through the woods while ramming the ball down the muzzle. Is this even possible? I have to use a short starter with mine and stand in one spot because there's no way I can start the ball with just my thumb and it's pretty tight going down. Did folks back then use thin patches or was it just Hollywood dramatic effect?
BTW, I also noticed in the last big battle scene that there was a militia soldier with a percussion lock. It really stood out from my perspective. Almost ruined the scene for me.
HistoryBuff
BTW, I also noticed in the last big battle scene that there was a militia soldier with a percussion lock. It really stood out from my perspective. Almost ruined the scene for me.
HistoryBuff
You can reload while on the run without a short starter if your patch and ball is the right combination. An example would be me using a .433 RB with .015 patch as compared to a .440 or .445 RB with .015 patch. Yes, it can be done...
Some also say coning the barrel will aid in loading w/o a short starter...
I will have to rewatch the DVD and look for that percussion lock. How did the movie makers miss that one??? :shake:
Some also say coning the barrel will aid in loading w/o a short starter...
I will have to rewatch the DVD and look for that percussion lock. How did the movie makers miss that one??? :shake:
Keep your eye on the ball-block he wears through much of the movie. Always one hole empty. Always the same hole.
Loaden on the run would take sum practice no doubt.Back in them days all they had were black powder guns,they were as acustom to them rifles like we are to our modern weapons maybe.Could be they could reload as easy as most of us can load shotgun shells in the magazine tube of a 870.Just a thought :hmm:
A 10 under ball can be started with the thumb if you have the right size patch and enough lube.It isnt how thick the patch is but how thick it is under compression.If it compresses down to 6 to 8 on a caliper is about right.Needs to be a good tight weave.If you can hold a clean unlubed patch up to the light and see much of any light threw it the weave aint tight enough.With this patch material an tallow for lube i can start the ball with my thumb,not completly but enough were i can get my ramrod on top the ball an push it down the bore with a wood ramrod.
This patch lube combo may be tight compared to the way they did it,dont know.One can only experyment with such things to determen what can load easy an still give decent accuracy.I do belive tallow is the super lube that many of us have over looked in these modern times.What they did in the old days worked and it can work for us also if we want to go that route.that is entirely up to each indivigual an milage may vairy.
A 10 under ball can be started with the thumb if you have the right size patch and enough lube.It isnt how thick the patch is but how thick it is under compression.If it compresses down to 6 to 8 on a caliper is about right.Needs to be a good tight weave.If you can hold a clean unlubed patch up to the light and see much of any light threw it the weave aint tight enough.With this patch material an tallow for lube i can start the ball with my thumb,not completly but enough were i can get my ramrod on top the ball an push it down the bore with a wood ramrod.
This patch lube combo may be tight compared to the way they did it,dont know.One can only experyment with such things to determen what can load easy an still give decent accuracy.I do belive tallow is the super lube that many of us have over looked in these modern times.What they did in the old days worked and it can work for us also if we want to go that route.that is entirely up to each indivigual an milage may vairy.
Some 50,000 Australians served in Vietnam, with a peak strength of around 8,000 in 1968-70. The first to arrive were jungle warfare experts in 1962, the last to leave were also training advisors in 1974. Officially 496 Australians died in Vietnam and 2,400 were wounded. In addition there were New Zealand forces throughout this period, averaging around 500 combat troops. 40 were killed in action. The populations of Australia and New Zealand at this time were less than 20 million and 4 million respectively, so their contribution was on par with that of the US in terms of population, numbers serving and casualty figures.
The Aussies and Kiwis were mainly in Phuoc Toy Province and were there to carry out offensive operations, which they did very successfully. They were highly regarded by Westmoreland and other US commanders because like the British Army at the time they had lots of experience of jungle warfare against communists in Borneo and Malaya in the late 40s, 50s and early 60s, and were all trained as jungle warfare specialists, unlike the bulk of the US forces in the early 60s.
The Aussies and Kiwis were mainly in Phuoc Toy Province and were there to carry out offensive operations, which they did very successfully. They were highly regarded by Westmoreland and other US commanders because like the British Army at the time they had lots of experience of jungle warfare against communists in Borneo and Malaya in the late 40s, 50s and early 60s, and were all trained as jungle warfare specialists, unlike the bulk of the US forces in the early 60s.
