The "Myth" of Cylinder Swapping?

[Poor Private]

Have you tried fitting one in a pistol ammo pouch? I just did. I can fit 1 Remy cylinder and pistol cartridges and caps. Or I can fit 2 pistol cylinders, and 1 tin of caps under neath one of them.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

But where would these extra cylinders have come from in period? The question isn't could they but did they on a regular basis.

 

[Dphar]

This is simply impossible to resolve.
It also depends on the weight being carried. In cavalry outfits the CO might not have allowed 3-4 revolvers since it adds weight to the load the horse has to carry. Would extra cylinders, either battlefield pickups or otherwise increase a troopers firepower without the weight of a whole revolver? Sure.
Trying to prove this at this date is pretty much impossible.
Another CO might have allowed them to carry all the extra revolvers they wanted.
From reading hear and thinking about it practicality points to the extra revolver if possible as the best solution.
Anyone know of any accounts of how many revolvers the James/Younger bunch carried at NorthField? Not percussion but it would give a clue to Civil War habits perhaps.

Dan

 

[jbg]

While it is well documented that Confederate guerillas carried as many revolvers as they could, I am not aware of any such provenance regarding regular cavalry. I have always thought that, as the officers were often West Point graduates, and professionals from the pre-war Federal cavalry, that they would be sticklers for following regulations. And if memory serves, the regs stated one revolver be issued.

 

[Poor Private]

I reenact the civil war, I belong to the 2nd Kentucky which was a regiment of Morgans Raiders. Morgans men were allowed to carry what they wished. they were a combination of infantry, cavalry, and artillary. they carreid every thing from shotguns, pistols, muskets, swords and big knives.

 

[Poor Private]

This was just submitted on another forum By John Tobey:
"Ten Years in the Saddle"(memoirs of W.W. Averell, edited by E.K. Eckert and N.J. Amato San Rafael CA, Presidio Press 1970.
"When the old dragoon revolver was first made, a dozen of them was sent to his regiment in for trial...each pistol had two(2) cylinders, both of which were kept loaded so that when the one in the pistol had been exhausted it could be removed and replaces by the extra one in a moment. Now said the Colonel[named Harney](WARMLY), "No man can be such a blankety-blank fool as not to see the importance of not losing the extra cylinder, for if lost you will have only six(6) shots..."(88-89)

 

[DanChamberlain]

Thank you for your research.

Dan

 

[Mulebrain]

On a civil war forum I posted the same question: And one of the responses was interesting to say the least. I will paraphrase.

The Federal Ordinance Department lists the following in it's "Instructions for Making Quarterly Returns":
Colt Army $3.57 ($20)
Colt Navy $3.09 ($18)
Lefaucheux $2.00 (13)
Savage $1.60 ($20)
Remington $2.00 ($12)
The cost in parentheses is the cost of a complete pistol. The other cost is the cost of a cylinder. In my estimation it seems that the federals were buying spare cylinders for pistols of all types.

I just started reading this thread, and I was thinkging!! Why not check factory production numbers of cylinders and pistols? Where available of course!

Based on that info, the were available!

 

[jbg]

This was just submitted on another forum By John Tobey:
"Ten Years in the Saddle"(memoirs of W.W. Averell, edited by E.K. Eckert and N.J. Amato San Rafael CA, Presidio Press 1970.
"When the old dragoon revolver was first made, a dozen of them was sent to his regiment in for trial...each pistol had two(2) cylinders, both of which were kept loaded so that when the one in the pistol had been exhausted it could be removed and replaces by the extra one in a moment. Now said the Colonel[named Harney](WARMLY), "No man can be such a blankety-blank fool as not to see the importance of not losing the extra cylinder, for if lost you will have only six(6) shots..."(88-89)

One of the many great things about this forum is the information made available. I, for one, find it vital to the furtherence of knowledge to look forward to being proven wrong with documented evidence.

 

[Poor Private]

Mule Brain,
This is one area we have a problem with. Colt has had several fires that has destroyed alot of thier older paper records. Thats why use of the Federal Military Ordinace orders are so vital. Whereas the southern records are tuff to find with fires and such in cities like Atlanta, and many others that contained warehouses, and supply orders.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

This was just submitted on another forum By John Tobey:
"Ten Years in the Saddle"(memoirs of W.W. Averell, edited by E.K. Eckert and N.J. Amato San Rafael CA, Presidio Press 1970.
"When the old dragoon revolver was first made, a dozen of them was sent to his regiment in for trial...each pistol had two(2) cylinders, both of which were kept loaded so that when the one in the pistol had been exhausted it could be removed and replaces by the extra one in a moment. Now said the Colonel[named Harney](WARMLY), "No man can be such a blankety-blank fool as not to see the importance of not losing the extra cylinder, for if lost you will have only six(6) shots..."(88-89)

These 12 revolvers were used in a test or trial. Is there any further information as to how they fared and if they became a general issue item and if so were they issued with a spare cylinder? Or was this just a one time thing?

 

[Poor Private]

Found this while searching the net for more information on spare cylinder usage:
"Civil War Revolvers of the North and South"
By Robert Nieport.
Under the heading of "Remington Revolver"
The last sentence goes as follows.
"To change the cylinder the trooper only had to drop the loading lever, slide out the cylinder pin, slide in a freshly loaded spare cylinder, slide back in the cylinder pin and snap shut the loading lever."

 

[Poor Private]

I just found 2 more references:
"Mosby's Rangers" By Jeffry D. Werts

"Mosbys' men carried a brace of colt pistols in two(2) holsters. Many of them also had a pair of revolvers in saddle holsters or additional, loaded cylinders in thier pockets. During combat if a ranger needed to reload cylinders, he dismounted and sought cover."

"The look of the Old West"
By Foster-Harris
In the fighting gear chapter on page 59 he says....
"an old codger who told me about Quantrills' guerillas- about whom he seemed to know an amazing lot for such a peaceful old man..."said that those enterprising outlawsused to carry loaded cylinders for thier dragoon colts, just as modern troopers carreid extra automatic pistol magazines, and they could load almost as fast."

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Found this while searching the net for more information on spare cylinder usage:
"Civil War Revolvers of the North and South"
By Robert Nieport.
Under the heading of "Remington Revolver"
The last sentence goes as follows.
"To change the cylinder the trooper only had to drop the loading lever, slide out the cylinder pin, slide in a freshly loaded spare cylinder, slide back in the cylinder pin and snap shut the loading lever."

Nice quote, but meaningless. Was this something written in 1864 or in 1964 (or latter) when a modern writer was making an "assumption" based on false information based on a lot of modern speculation? Poor Private, has gotten several pages of excellent, well thought out replies to this question on the Civil War Reenactors Forum. The answer seems to be that extra cylinders were not used for reloading, civilian or especially military, in "the day". Despite all of the speculation I still can't figure out how loaded extra cylinders were carried without standing the chance of an accidental discharge from something banging against the capped nipples while it was bouncing around in the pocket, haversack or what have you. Also, how could you guarantee that the caps would stay on?

 

[Dphar]

Found this while searching the net for more information on spare cylinder usage:
"Civil War Revolvers of the North and South"
By Robert Nieport.
Under the heading of "Remington Revolver"
The last sentence goes as follows.
"To change the cylinder the trooper only had to drop the loading lever, slide out the cylinder pin, slide in a freshly loaded spare cylinder, slide back in the cylinder pin and snap shut the loading lever."

Nice quote, but meaningless. Was this something written in 1864 or in 1964 (or latter) when a modern writer was making an "assumption" based on false information based on a lot of modern speculation? Poor Private, has gotten several pages of excellent, well thought out replies to this question on the Civil War Reenactors Forum. The answer seems to be that extra cylinders were not used for reloading, civilian or especially military, in "the day". Despite all of the speculation I still can't figure out how loaded extra cylinders were carried without standing the chance of an accidental discharge from something banging against the capped nipples while it was bouncing around in the pocket, haversack or what have you. Also, how could you guarantee that the caps would stay on?

Back in the day the caps actually fit. Getting the proper size was not a problem. They were tight on the cylinder and pretty well sealed out moisture.
So far as accidental discharges, probably not as likely as you might think. The nipples were recessed. If the cylinder was by itself in a pouch or pocket it would be pretty safe.

As I previously stated this is not resolvable for some. To me the period tale of using interchangeable cylinders in the Dragoon Revolvers seals the deal as to its being known at the time. Which I had expected but I could find nothing in writing from the period, though I didn't look very hard.
I was told by my father when I started shooting C&B revolvers in the 60s that in the old days they carried extra cylinders. Now where did he get this? It came down through the years in one way or another. But its "anecdotal" and is not proof.
I may have another look at Firearms of the American West.
Dan

 

[crockett]

Well, it seems to me that in the Civil War the Northern Cavalry probably did not carry spare cylinders. For the Confederates, up until now I thought they generally carried as many pistols as possible however maybe that was only the guerrilla
types like Quantrill, Mosby, Morgan, etc although I'm not sure, could have been any Confederate cavalry man. When you read "up to six revolvers", that was probably the maximum amount. That prior note I mentioned on the "I rode with Quantrill" book- it was my impression at the time that Frank James picked up the spare cylinder with the intend to carry it loaded.

 

[Coot]

Back in the day the caps actually fit. Getting the proper size was not a problem. They were tight on the cylinder and pretty well sealed out moisture.
So far as accidental discharges, probably not as likely as you might think. The nipples were recessed. If the cylinder was by itself in a pouch or pocket it would be pretty safe.

Why did "caps actually fit" "back in the day" but with the precision manufacturing equipment currently available are a problem today?

As to the safety of carrying a spare (loaded) cylinder, placing the cylinder in a leather pouch, isolated in a wool pocket or wrapped in a rag would seem to be within 19c safety standards.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The reason the caps fit back in the day may be because the the guns, the nipples or cones and the caps were all made here and often by the same companies. Today the guns come from one country and the caps from a few countries and some are metric and some aren't.

Personally I would rather have several revolvers than a bunch of spare cylinders, especially Army size revolvers. If I was on a horse. Six Colt Armies weigh over 16 pounds empty. Six Dragoons are even more of a burden--somewhere around 26+ pounds. The horse is going to be very unhappy. Both propositions seem to have their downsides. The fact that it is possible to do something--in this case swap out cylinders--doesn't mean it was done on a regular basis. And the memories of old soldiers are often faulty--I have a friend who is a fellow Vietnam veteran who spent years thinking he fired 7.62 rounds in his M-16. It took some convincing to change his mind. Somehow he'd gotten this idea in his head and gradually it became reality. The image of a friend cleaning his revolver and replacing the cylinder after it was cleaned could easily become a memory of his friend swapping out an empty cylinder for a loaded one during battle. The mind plays tricks on us all. We may never know for sure what the usual behavior was in this case.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I haven't read this whole thread, but it is my understanding that the first order for colt revolvers by the Texas Rangers called for each ranger to be issued two revolvers, with 2 extra cylinders. The only confusion that I have ever read about this was whether this was two extra cylinders per revolver, or one for each revolver.

I believe it was the interchangeability of cylinders that gave the revolver the competitive edge over the competing pepper box pistols.

When Walker ordered the larger Colt revolvers, again, they were issued two to a soldier, with extra cylinders. Those later guns were carried in holsters that were secured to the saddle horns, and not in holsters around the waist, as were the earlier Paterson Colt revolvers.

I understand that this practice of issuing extra cylinders remain standard army practice through the 1840s, '50s, and .60's. Only with the advent of the breechloading cartridge revolvers was it considered unnecessary for spare cylinders to be issued and carried.

If I am wrong about this, I apologize to the history buffs. I have read some old texts on this subject, and have several sources about the old revolvers written long before the Post WWII re-enactment craze, and TV horseoperas let Hollywood distort every part of history.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Paul

Since you haven't read the entire thread, you missed the reference to the original Patterson Colts (the one's the Texas Rangers ordered) being issued with spare cylinders because the revolvers had no built in provision for reloading. The gun had to be broken down to reload.

After that, extra cylinders were on an order by order basis. The number of cased sets extant, would indicate that extra cylinders were more rare than not.

I would believe that if the practice were done at all, the Confederate guerilla cavalry would have been the one's to do it. They were poorly supplied and had to rely often on what they could "requisition" from whatever local populace they were visiting at the time.

Dan