The Rifle Shoppe Short Land Bess Kit

[keithgill]

Has anyone built one? I have one that has been sitting in pieces because of a move. Want to get it going. Would like to pick brains as I start my first kit.

I opted for Eurpean Walnut stock. Need advice on staining. Have done research, but most people are not using the european walnut.

I got an assembled lock but it needs polishing. So disassemble and polish. What is the best way to do this?

 

[billraby]

I have doing a video series on building a fusil-de-chasse kit. Its not a Bess, but most of it will apply to what you are building. Here is the first video in the series.

Part 1 - https://youtu.be/8YiR6o9iL9Y

Parts 11 and 12 get into polishing the metal.

Part 11 - https://youtu.be/7EhqHLdnluQ
Part 12 - https://youtu.be/22Ek44pGbS8

 

[Rifleman1776]

For my tastes walnut does not need staining, it is already dark. After sanding just a hand rubbed oil finish gives a pleasing appearance for a piece like that.

 

[Zonie]

Don't worry about finishing the walnut stock at this stage of the game.

When you get to the point where the wood shaping and thinning is done and the surfaces are where they should be, then, get a wet rag and your stock and go out into the sunlight. (A brightly lit room will work but actual sunlight is far better).

Using the rag, fully wet the surface of the wood and take a good, long look at it.

What you are seeing is exactly what the wood will look like when it gets its finishing oil applied.

When the water dries, the walnut will return to its lighter, untreated look.

While your at it, if the water caused any grain to rise, forming whiskers, use some new 220 grit sandpaper with very little pressure to remove them. Actually, it's a good idea, especially on walnut, to whisker it several times before applying any finish coat.

In most cases, walnut will not need any stain at all. Although it looks rather light when your filing, scraping and sanding it, it will always become much darker and richer in color when it is wetted with water or oil.

The only times I know of when walnut actually needs any kind of stain is when the wood was cut leaving sapwood showing.
Sapwood in walnut and most other woods is considerably lighter than the heartwood and staining it with a alcohol based "walnut" stain is usually required to make it match the darker wood adjacent to it.

While on the subject of staining walnut, do NOT use Aqua Fortis or lye water treatments on it.
Aqua Fortis and lye water will darken the wood to an almost black color, totally hiding the grain patterns that make walnut such a beautiful wood.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I've not built a TRS Brown Bess parts set but I've built several Besses, Colonial muskets based on the Bess, and reworked a lot of Pedersoli Besses to make them more historically accurate. You will need at least a mainspring vise to disassemble your lock safely. For polishing use polishing stones like those from Gesswein (jewelry maker supplier) dipped in mineral or parafin oil. Fine ScotchBright pads (maroon and gray) will burnish the metal nicely after the stones. Do not under any circumstances use a buffing wheel or your parts will end up looking like the India-made guns with all the screw holes dished out and edges rounded down. I use English walnut a lot. Some lighter grayish brown blanks will benefit from staining other warm colored blanks can just be varnished or oiled. Laurel Mountain Forge's walnut stain is a good choice, but dilute it first. As to the finish, Besses were often stained brownish, orangey, or reddish brown. Often the color seems to have been added to the oil varnish finish rather than applied first and then top coated with finish. Some Besses were not stained despite having light walnut stocks so you can kind off take your pick. The finish on the stocks is not highly refined. I would not go at it too much with sandpaper and no finer than 220. I would even suggest stopping at 150-180 grits. If your stock is plain jane walnut without intesting grain, you can fill the grain when finishing quickly by sanding the stock with 150-180 grit paper dipped in thinned oil varnish. Sand the wood to create a slurry of sawdust and oil on the surface and then wipe it off before it dries. Let it dry thoroughly and then sand the rough surface again to smooth it. The sawdust slurry will fill the open grain of walnut very quickly. Then you just rub on more oil varnish until the finish is done. This method will obscure some of the grain but it is very efficient. If you want to keep the grain clear, forgo the oil and sanding and just put finish on the stained or unstained wood. It will take longer to build up and fill the grain but you will better showcase what grain the wood has. Any oil varnish mix or polymerized oil finish will do a good and HC looking job. Below are English guns with English walnut stocks. The 2 on the left were built by me, the 2 on the right are 250-year old original English fowlers. The folwer on the left was stained with LMF stain, the second from the left is a rifle that was not stained. Both of the original guns were stained probably with tinted oil varnish finish. The last photo shows a colonial militia musket made using TRS lock parts and shows what kind of polish your lock should have.


dave

 

[keithgill]

Sorry everyone, I didn't use the right term when i said stain. What I meant was oil. I have experimented with several formulas for an oil rub, Period correct, NOT a STAIN. Just wondering what others have done with a european walnut.

I am interested in a stock finish that looks like it is 1775, not a 200+ year old faded and aged finish.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Nothing I wrote above will give you a "200 year old faded" finish. They are what I use to build Besses that look like they are 18th century new based on examination of many originals and restoring several. You should get a copy of Erik Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray's book on Brown Besses. The detailed color plates will help particulalrly if you do not have access to originals. For finishes, any linseed or tung oil varnish mix or polymerized oil will look correct.

dave

 

[Capt. Jas.]

For most English walnut I like to use aqua fortis (nitric acid), no iron added, cut 1/5 with water.

 

[Artificer]

A system for the complete interior management and oeconomy of a battalion of infantry, by Captain (later Major) Bennett Cuthbertson (British Army) gives good information as he published this manual three times and first after the Seven Years/French and Indian War and the Second Edition published in 1779.

Note: Spelling was changed to modern usage compared to the original text.

"By going to some little expense, it will not be difficult to bring the stocks of the firelock to one uniform colour, by staining them either black, red or yellow; and then by laying on a varnish to preserve them always in a glossy, shining condition."

He also noted that "a little bee's wax joined to the labour of the Soldier to rub it on.....will prove a most pleasing effect..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OK, with the original documentation above, it clearly shows that during the period, at least the British Army Regiments could and did stain and polish the stocks to their liking.

Personally, I don't believe many, if any, American AWI Regiments did most of this, as they often were not supplied with many things they needed more than stock stains and varnish - but that doesn't mean a captured Brown Bess would not have been in a condition similar to that described above, when captured by an American soldier.

What I did when I refinished by old Brown Bess Carbine was first strip the old finish using Acetone. I sanded it with 150 grit and 180 grit sandpaper. Then I laid on a diluted coat of Tru Oil and after it dried thoroughly, lightly sanded it again with 180 grit sandpaper and wiped it very clean. Then I stained it with Fiebing's Medium Brown Leather Dye, which is a "spirit" or alcohol stain. I waited 6 hours for that to dry thoroughly, then rubbed the dickens out of it with a Terrycloth dish towel. Then I took it outside in the sun to see if it was the color I wanted and it was. Had it not been dark enough, I would have added one or more coats of stain and repeated rubbing the dickens out of it. After that I applied three or four coats of Tru Oil, and after each coat dryed; I used a Gray Scotchbrite Pad (found at Home Depot/Lowe's in the paint section) to lightly abrade the dried finish after each coat. After doing that on the final coat, I once again rubbed the dickens out of the stock with the Terrycloth rag. That gave a very nice/warm glow to the finish. Then I applied bee's wax and rubbed the stock a final time with the terrycloth rag.

I'm sorry, but I didn't/don't have a PC capable camera to show what it looked like.

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

Which millenium did you place your order in to TRS? :rotf:

 

[keithgill]

I do have that book, helpful in many ways.

Hi,
Nothing I wrote above will give you a "200 year old faded" finish. They are what I use to build Besses that look like they are 18th century new based on examination of many originals and restoring several. You should get a copy of Erik Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray's book on Brown Besses. The detailed color plates will help particulalrly if you do not have access to originals. For finishes, any linseed or tung oil varnish mix or polymerized oil will look correct.

dave

 

[keithgill]

Yes I have seen that report as well. Does not sound like it was a common practice everywhere, on either side. Would be interesting to see one done that way but not my expensive kit!!! :grin:

A system for the complete interior management and oeconomy of a battalion of infantry, by Captain (later Major) Bennett Cuthbertson (British Army) gives good information as he published this manual three times and first after the Seven Years/French and Indian War and the Second Edition published in 1779.

Note: Spelling was changed to modern usage compared to the original text.

"By going to some little expense, it will not be difficult to bring the stocks of the firelock to one uniform colour, by staining them either black, red or yellow; and then by laying on a varnish to preserve them always in a glossy, shining condition."

He also noted that "a little bee's wax joined to the labour of the Soldier to rub it on.....will prove a most pleasing effect..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Gus

 

[Bcarrington]

Yeah! I wanted to ask the same question! I am looking to buy a Bess kit and have been eyeing their products. I have read that TRS can have a quicker turnaround time with more common parts instead of the specialty parts. I would think a Brown Bess would be one that they stockpile parts for but thats just me.

ALSO COULD YOU POST SOME PICTURES? I have been looking for photos of TRS products but have been so far unable to locate any!

 

[dave_person]

Hi
"Does not sound like it was a common practice everywhere, on either side." Based on what evidence?

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I just looked at my notes from my 7/6/2017 inspection of some Brown Besses at Fort Ticonderoga. Of the 3 muskets I was interested in, 2 had colored oil varnishes applied and one was unstained but with a shiny varnish. The pattern 1769 musket from Dublin Castle had a very shiny walnut brown colored varnish applied. Of the 50-60 18th century Brown Besses I've examined, many had colored varnishes, some looked to be simply oiled and some varnished but not stained. Like I wrote previously, you can take your pick but I don't agree at all that colored varnishes were "uncommon".

dave

 

[keithgill]

Which millenium did you place your order in to TRS? :rotf:

If I recall it took 9 months???

Lots of unanswered voicemails, finally got through a few times and found out the european walnut stock that took three months to arrive from europe (i think it was) arrived warped. They had to re-order. but nobody called or emailed to tell me what was going on. The product looks good as far as I can tell, but their customer communication is really not good. BUT maybe it is better now. Super nice people.

Really all I wanted was my phone calls returned and to know they were working the problem.

 

[keithgill]

Maybe I can post some pictures of the kit but i won't be regularly working on it for a while.

Yeah! I wanted to ask the same question! I am looking to buy a Bess kit and have been eyeing their products. I have read that TRS can have a quicker turnaround time with more common parts instead of the specialty parts. I would think a Brown Bess would be one that they stockpile parts for but thats just me.

ALSO COULD YOU POST SOME PICTURES? I have been looking for photos of TRS products but have been so far unable to locate any!

 

[Bcarrington]

That’s cool. I wasn’t looking for a build walk through. Just a few photos of what their product looks like. Their page mention some photos but I am not sure if that part of the site is broken or my browser is out of date.

Thanks for the info

 

[Scota4570]

Which millenium did you place your order in to TRS? :rotf:

If I recall it took 9 months???

Lots of unanswered voicemails, finally got through a few times and found out the european walnut stock that took three months to arrive from europe (i think it was) arrived warped. They had to re-order. but nobody called or emailed to tell me what was going on. The product looks good as far as I can tell, but their customer communication is really not good. BUT maybe it is better now. Super nice people.

Really all I wanted was my phone calls returned and to know they were working the problem.

Based on what I have read about them, and my experience trying to speak to them on the phone, I would not attempt to do business with them for most orders. They generally don't do the casting and assemble the parts set until the order is placed. That can take forever.

If they had it ready to ship today, maybe....possibly, but only, if is was feeling very lucky.

Too many horror stories about them. For me, it would probably be faster to build every part from scratch.