The Tale of A 200 Year Old Shotgun

[stephenprops1]

It IS beautiful.

Not to rain on your parade but there are two things to beware of: With that curly stock, and the age of the gun, watch out for cracks. They are insidious! The other thing I am sure you have already heard about, Damascus barrels. Most gunsmiths simply will not recommend shooting them these days. Your gun looks to be in good shape and was clearly well cared for. That said... look out for Damascus.

If somehow I acquired a gun like that (unlikely at best), and I wanted to shoot it, I would check into the possibility of putting a barrel liner in it... preferably one made of stainless steel. I would make it a heavy barreled 12 or 16 gauge. Ask Mr. Hoyt about that if you are curious. These things used to blow up regularly a hundred years ago... though those were mostly cartridge guns firing smokeless powder loads... which is and was a dumb thing to do.

At very least, keep the loads light and maybe investigate Hogdon Triple 7... which is less corrosive than anything else I am aware of. Those welds are perfect traps for powder to get into and start corroding the barrel.

Some years ago, an old man brought a Damascus barreled gun into the shop where I was working. There were holes corroded in the barrel that we could clearly see without going to any real effort. The kicker was when he told us he was sure it "worked" because he had test-fired it just before bringing it in. He had a couple of 1 1/8th ounce fired 3 dram trap shells to prove it!

God takes care of drunks and fools.

I agree with your suggestion of sleeving the barrel. --- Last month a fellow consigned a Damascus double barreled Parker shotgun in the shop where I work part-time. It was a 12 gauge that had steel sleeves in each barrel, making a 20 gauge. The gun sold within a couple of weeks.

 

[lou puleff]

Shoot it and enjoy it beautiful gun !

 

[muzzlecap]

Nice gun. Nothing wrong with shooting damascus barrelled guns providing the barrels aren't all pitted internally and they haven't been honed to death.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

DN'T SLEEVE THAT BARREL! If the bore is good just shoot it. I have shot thousands of rounds through damascus barrels. Both ML and cartridge.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Lot of talk about damascus and stub twist barrels is very uninformed.
If well made and taken care of, these barrels are as sound as any.
In tests of Damascus against modern steels, (Whitworth fluid steel etc)
done in the late 19th Century, a three stripe damascus came out as the strongest, followed by a two stripe Damascus, then drawn steel tubes, then on down the line, a mix of steel and damascus.
I think these tests will be seen in Greener of 1910.
These were destruction tests.
If a barrel rings well when suspended from a string and struck, it is likely sound and serviceable if not too pitted.
Ball does create more pressure.
For a ten bore muzzle loader, a 12 bore charge , even down to an ounce will work, and it will produce wonderful patterns with the latter.
Some of the best patterns ever produced have been with light loads in a ten.

Black powder is not corrosive, but is hydroscopic, so can attract water. a good wash out with water is all the solvent they need.

I think that the twist blank may have originated in Belgium, going by the pattern. Nothing at all wrong with that!

Also a barrel sleeved to a smaller calibre destroys the handling of a gun.

Best,
Rich.

 

[Splitear]

Lot of talk about damascus and stub twist barrels is very uninformed.
If well made and taken care of, these barrels are as sound as any.
In tests of Damascus against modern steels, (Whitworth fluid steel etc)
done in the late 19th Century, a three stripe damascus came out as the strongest, followed by a two stripe Damascus, then drawn steel tubes, then on down the line, a mix of steel and damascus.
I think these tests will be seen in Greener of 1910.
These were destruction tests.
If a barrel rings well when suspended from a string and struck, it is likely sound and serviceable if not too pitted.
Ball does create more pressure.
For a ten bore muzzle loader, a 12 bore charge , even down to an ounce will work, and it will produce wonderful patterns with the latter.
Some of the best patterns ever produced have been with light loads in a ten.

Black powder is not corrosive, but is hydroscopic, so can attract water. a good wash out with water is all the solvent they need.

I think that the twist blank may have originated in Belgium, going by the pattern. Nothing at all wrong with that!

Also a barrel sleeved to a smaller calibre destroys the handling of a gun.

Best,
Rich.

Thank you for this. I need to do the "ring" test, but the bore looks fantastic. I also need to get a caliper on it to measure the barrel thickness, but it looks good to me. I'll try to take a photo tonight, but the bore looks really good when a light is dropped down it.

I think I have forgone the idea of shooting a ball out of it, I have better guns for that. I would really like to get a good load worked up for it with some #4 or #6 shot to squirrel hunt with.

I have no plans to sleeve it. If there ends up being a concern with the barrels integrity, I will clean it and keep it as a safe queen. I can shoot my New Englander and shop for a double barrel if I want to shoot ML shotgun

 

[TFoley]

Thank you for this. I need to do the "ring" test, but the bore looks fantastic. I also need to get a caliper on it to measure the barrel thickness, but it looks good to me. I'll try to take a photo tonight, but the bore looks really good when a light is dropped down it.

I think I have forgone the idea of shooting a ball out of it, I have better guns for that. I would really like to get a good load worked up for it with some #4 or #6 shot to squirrel hunt with.

I have no plans to sleeve it. If there ends up being a concern with the barrels integrity, I will clean it and keep it as a safe queen. I can shoot my New Englander and shop for a double barrel if I want to shoot ML shotgun

Just to let you know that I occasionally get let loose on the clay range with a pair of 12g percussion SxS made in 1858 that have been in the same family since new. They have 'fine twist' barrels - the guns were made in Edinburgh and have been checked out every five years or so since. They look maybe a year old. The same family have a similar pair of c*r*r*d*e-firing guns, made in 1878, with over five million shots through them, according to the log book. They, too, are twist barrels made by that same company - still in business.

 

[Sparkitoff]

The "Ring Test" is really for double guns. It gives an indication of the continuity of the over and under ribs weld to the barrels. You barrel should be one solid barrel with a soldered or dovetailed tenion and ramrod pipes. The "ring" won't tell much abou the barrel itself. Just use a good light to see down the bore and a scope if you have one. Also, some flannel patch material to see if you feel any snags or rough spots. I regularly shoot shotguns with damascus barrels made from 1826 to as late as1876. Proper loads are important and regular cleaning and inspection are necessary. Other than that, let it do what it was meant for.... and for a ball, I'd use a card, fibre wad, bare ball and then over-shot card. A ball would not have been patched when this gun was in its infancy.

 

[Relic shooter]

It IS beautiful.

Not to rain on your parade but there are two things to beware of: With that curly stock, and the age of the gun, watch out for cracks. They are insidious! The other thing I am sure you have already heard about, Damascus barrels. Most gunsmiths simply will not recommend shooting them these days. Your gun looks to be in good shape and was clearly well cared for. That said... look out for Damascus.

If somehow I acquired a gun like that (unlikely at best), and I wanted to shoot it, I would check into the possibility of putting a barrel liner in it... preferably one made of stainless steel. I would make it a heavy barreled 12 or 16 gauge. Ask Mr. Hoyt about that if you are curious. These things used to blow up regularly a hundred years ago... though those were mostly cartridge guns firing smokeless powder loads... which is and was a dumb thing to do.

At very least, keep the loads light and maybe investigate Hogdon Triple 7... which is less corrosive than anything else I am aware of. Those welds are perfect traps for powder to get into and start corroding the barrel.

Some years ago, an old man brought a Damascus barreled gun into the shop where I was working. There were holes corroded in the barrel that we could clearly see without going to any real effort. The kicker was when he told us he was sure it "worked" because he had test-fired it just before bringing it in. He had a couple of 1 1/8th ounce fired 3 dram trap shells to prove it!

God takes care of drunks and fools.

Dale you might want to reconsider what you've been told about shooting original flint & percussion firearms is unsafe as there are many on this forum like myself who do shoot them including those on our International ML Shooting Team.

The only originals that I don't shoot are mint specimens that I don't want to degrade by shooting them, 'or' lower quality barn find firearms that reflect questionable quality & condition.

I'm 80+ & have been collecting, dealing & shooting original firearms from the flintlock & percussion era for over 60 years.
It's true statement that if you don't have a solid mechanical understanding on how to evaluate the condition of an antique firearm, you certainly should have it inspected first by a 'qualified' gunsmith & exclude those wanna-be experts in modern sporting good stores who know nothing about period firearms.
When it comes to shooting any original percussion firearm regardless of condition I always replace the nipples with a new quality replacement & check condition of threads. If nipple area threads look overly worn or corroded I re-thread them to next size above. Relic shooter

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Dale you might want to reconsider what you've been told about shooting original flint & percussion firearms is unsafe as there are many on this forum like myself who do shoot them including those on our International ML Shooting Team.

The only originals that I don't shoot are mint specimens that I don't want to degrade by shooting them, 'or' lower quality barn find firearms that reflect questionable quality & condition.

I'm 80+ & have been collecting, dealing & shooting original firearms from the flintlock & percussion era for over 60 years.
It's true statement that if you don't have a solid mechanical understanding on how to evaluate the condition of an antique firearm, you certainly should have it inspected first by a 'qualified' gunsmith & exclude those wanna-be experts in modern sporting good stores who know nothing about period firearms.
When it comes to shooting any original percussion firearm regardless of condition I always replace the nipples with a new quality replacement & check condition of threads. If nipple area threads look overly worn or corroded I re-thread them to next size above. Relic shooter

Well, I have reconsidered it over the years. I've even fired a few myself. I will admit that a century-old gun that is made from billet steel is not nearly as prone to problems as a barrel that has two halves welded together or a Damascus barrel welded on a mandrel. If I ever acquire a Civil War era rifled musket in good shape, I might well fire it.

Among other things, I am also a hobby blacksmith, so I know how hammer-forging is done. That said, I would never attempt to pattern weld anything on a mandrel that needs to contain the pressure of a black powder explosion. First, I am not that good a blacksmith, second, while it can and has been done, that method of manufacture has been gone for a century now because it was inherently dangerous and better methodology has been invented since then.

I am a bit younger than you are at 66, but I have been shooting black powder guns for more than forty years. I also worked in gun shops for more than twenty years... closer to thirty, actually. I've never been around to see a gun blow up, but I have seen a few examples that did blow up... even a modern gun or two that failed because of manufacturing defects. I also fired a shotgun once that unlocked during battery allowing a good portion of the contents of the shell to exit via the ejection port... where my wife (now ex-wife) happened to be standing. Now, this was a modern gun.

When a Damascus barrel was first made, I am sure it was up to industry standards of the time... and they often bear proof marks to insure this. That said, this was a hundred years ago... a hundred years that black powder residue has had to work on weakening all those welds that might have been potentially flawed even when new. Passing a heavy charge proof is no guarantee that the very next charge will not cause the barrel to burst.

Ever seen a Winchester Model 92 in 25-20? So have I. Ever seen one with a bore that did not look like a sewer pipe? Neither have I. Back in the day, most people viewed a gun as a tool... and did not necessarily take very good care of it.

Now we all assume risks when shooting anything, but that is a personal choice. I used to routinely fire up a gasoline blow torch, even though it was a fifty-year-old antique with a check valve that might fail at any moment... which would be... um... bad, real bad. This is still a free country and people can and should feel free to do whatever they want to so long as it doesn't harm somebody else. That said, we have all heard the warnings, and I have personally seen some blown up guns. Most modern gunsmiths as a matter of course will NOT approve any Damascus gun as safe to shoot. If a professional gunsmith will not approve one, how could I, a mere retired gun salesman approve one?

You can certainly go ahead and shoot whatever you wish. I will do the same, but I draw my own personal line of risk in this area at Damascus guns. If I won't shoot it, I won't recommend anyone else do so either.

Sorry for the rant. The older I get the more prone to ranting I get.

 

[Campbell]

Wow. That case hardening looks like Turnbull work. Beautiful.

I'd shoot an ounce for clays, you might go a bit more if you're going to hunt squirrel, it's a 10 bore after all!
I probably wouldn't shoot round ball in it. That gun was intended for shot. It looks like modern case color to me, probably Turnbull. Nothing wrong with that, he's top of the line.

Turnbull - first thing I thought with that beautiful case hardening. Just looks like his work.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Sparkitoff,
The under rib of a single will give the same 'deaf' sound if loose , plus a single with no rib can if faulty emit a 'plunky ' sound.
A single that rings like Big Ben is a wonderful sound! of course, steel and iron ring differently...but still ring.

Very best,
R.

 

[TFoley]

Well, I have reconsidered it over the years. I've even fired a few myself. I will admit that a century-old gun that is made from billet steel is not nearly as prone to problems as a barrel that has two halves welded together or a Damascus barrel welded on a mandrel. If I ever acquire a Civil War era rifled musket in good shape, I might well fire it.

Among other things, I am also a hobby blacksmith, so I know how hammer-forging is done. That said, I would never attempt to pattern weld anything on a mandrel that needs to contain the pressure of a black powder explosion. First, I am not that good a blacksmith, second, while it can and has been done, that method of manufacture has been gone for a century now because it was inherently dangerous and better methodology has been invented since then.

I am a bit younger than you are at 66, but I have been shooting black powder guns for more than forty years. I also worked in gun shops for more than twenty years... closer to thirty, actually. I've never been around to see a gun blow up, but I have seen a few examples that did blow up... even a modern gun or two that failed because of manufacturing defects. I also fired a shotgun once that unlocked during battery allowing a good portion of the contents of the shell to exit via the ejection port... where my wife (now ex-wife) happened to be standing. Now, this was a modern gun.

When a Damascus barrel was first made, I am sure it was up to industry standards of the time... and they often bear proof marks to insure this. That said, this was a hundred years ago... a hundred years that black powder residue has had to work on weakening all those welds that might have been potentially flawed even when new. Passing a heavy charge proof is no guarantee that the very next charge will not cause the barrel to burst.

Ever seen a Winchester Model 92 in 25-20? So have I. Ever seen one with a bore that did not look like a sewer pipe? Neither have I. Back in the day, most people viewed a gun as a tool... and did not necessarily take very good care of it.

Now we all assume risks when shooting anything, but that is a personal choice. I used to routinely fire up a gasoline blow torch, even though it was a fifty-year-old antique with a check valve that might fail at any moment... which would be... um... bad, real bad. This is still a free country and people can and should feel free to do whatever they want to so long as it doesn't harm somebody else. That said, we have all heard the warnings, and I have personally seen some blown up guns. Most modern gunsmiths as a matter of course will NOT approve any Damascus gun as safe to shoot. If a professional gunsmith will not approve one, how could I, a mere retired gun salesman approve one?

You can certainly go ahead and shoot whatever you wish. I will do the same, but I draw my own personal line of risk in this area at Damascus guns. If I won't shoot it, I won't recommend anyone else do so either.

Sorry for the rant. The older I get the more prone to ranting I get.

Please note that over here, where guns have been made for quite a while, barrels were and are NOT welded together. 'English' guns are soldered, and Belgian guns are brazed. The only old guns I've EVER seen 'blown up' have been exhibits where modern nitro-based propellants have been used - either inadvertently through ignorance, or deliberately by way of experiment. I've never seen an English gun in 'Elmer Fudd' form.

 

[French Colonial]

When damascus barrels and fluid steel barrels were both being offered by Remington the damascus barrels were considered the better of the two and cost more.

I have fired and will fire (hopefully) 100's of more rounds through damascus barrels and never give a second thought regarding their strength. But I am not putting modern goose loads in a 150 year old gun either, some people can destroy an anvil with a rubber hammer.

As mentioned elsewhere, old myths die hard.

 

[senseisugarbear]

You mention in OP that the Maker of this Exceptional Shotgun was only an ACTIVE gun maker for 17 yrs. With this CALIBER of work I wonder how many Pieces he ever got made? No one part of the gun stands out, Every part is as fantastic as the next......Be Safe>>>>>>Wally

 

[Splitear]

You mention in OP that the Maker of this Exceptional Shotgun was only an ACTIVE gun maker for 17 yrs. With this CALIBER of work I wonder how many Pieces he ever got made? No one part of the gun stands out, Every part is as fantastic as the next......Be Safe>>>>>>Wally

I by no means want to represent my original post as my research, that information came courtesy of @Sparkitoff on my post asking for information about it in the Smoothbore forum. What Can You Tell Me About George Davison, Alnwick England?

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Please note that over here, where guns have been made for quite a while, barrels were and are NOT welded together. 'English' guns are soldered, and Belgian guns are brazed. The only old guns I've EVER seen 'blown up' have been exhibits where modern nitro-based propellants have been used - either inadvertently through ignorance, or deliberately by way of experiment. I've never seen an English gun in 'Elmer Fudd' form.

A Damascus barrel is made by welding typically three twisted strands of steel wrapped around a mandrel. The resultant barrel might be further machined/polished after the barrel is made. At that point, multiple barrels might be soldered or brazed to a center section that fits between the barrels. The barrel itself is NOT soldered or brazed together. That sort of adhesion would fail at the first shot. It isn't the soldered or brazed center joint that one needs to be concerned about, as those joints are fairly low stress (though those do sometimes fail), but the barrel itself that fails, often catastrophically. See image below.

A Damascus barreled gun might be quite safe to fire with suitable loads, BUT, and this is a very BIG but, at some point, the barrel will fail, and there is no reliable way to tell exactly when that is going to happen.

I don't expect to "convert" anyone here. Minds are already made up on that subject, but if you are new to... especially... Damascus shotgun barrels, consider carefully the words of many gunsmiths world wide who generally do not recommend shooting or themselves will not shoot a Damascus barreled gun.

When I sold those guns in my shop, they were always sold "as is" with a strong suggestion that they be hung on a wall and never fired. I never encountered even one that was in good enough shape that I would consider violating that "rule". All of them were rusty POS guns, not even suitable for barrel lining. If they were safe to shoot, we would not have done that.

 

[muzzlecap]

Thing is, no one is giving the reason why certain barrels failed. Were they mistakenly double or triple charged? Was smokeless powder used by mistake or on purpose? Were the barrels very badly pitted/neglected to start with? For every damascus barrel that has failed, I'm sure they can be countered with a modern barrel that failed. This is not saying every barrel should be shot., damascus or modern if condition warrants that they shouldn't be. But don't kid yourself if you think barrels won't fail just because they are modern.

 

[French Colonial]

A Damascus barrel is made by welding typically three twisted strands of steel wrapped around a mandrel. The resultant barrel might be further machined/polished after the barrel is made. At that point, multiple barrels might be soldered or brazed to a center section that fits between the barrels. The barrel itself is NOT soldered or brazed together. That sort of adhesion would fail at the first shot. It isn't the soldered or brazed center joint that one needs to be concerned about, as those joints are fairly low stress (though those do sometimes fail), but the barrel itself that fails, often catastrophically. See image below.

A Damascus barreled gun might be quite safe to fire with suitable loads, BUT, and this is a very BIG but, at some point, the barrel will fail, and there is no reliable way to tell exactly when that is going to happen.

I don't expect to "convert" anyone here. Minds are already made up on that subject, but if you are new to... especially... Damascus shotgun barrels, consider carefully the words of many gunsmiths world wide who generally do not recommend shooting or themselves will not shoot a Damascus barreled gun.

When I sold those guns in my shop, they were always sold "as is" with a strong suggestion that they be hung on a wall and never fired. I never encountered even one that was in good enough shape that I would consider violating that "rule". All of them were rusty POS guns, not even suitable for barrel lining. If they were safe to shoot, we would not have done that.
View attachment 196686

Sorry Dale, My dad used to say the same thing about every muzzleloader he ever saw or heard about, they all were going to "blow up" and those bb guns were going to put your eye out.

When all my friends were shooting them with no problems I realized the truth, dad was wrong sometimes.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Sorry Dale, My dad used to say the same thing about every muzzleloader he ever saw or heard about, they all were going to "blow up" and those bb guns were going to put your eye out.

When all my friends were shooting them with no problems I realized the truth, dad was wrong sometimes.

I am done repeating myself on this subject. You folks shoot what you want. I will do the same, and good luck to all of us.
PS: "You'll shoot your eye out."