The Timothy Murphy shot.

[GAHUNTER60]

That "miscalculation" probably cost Britain its American colonies. BTW, it was George Bernard Shaw insinuating incompetence, not me.

It's a fascinating subject, but, I fear, not one suited for this particular thread on Timothy Murphy's rifle.

But while we are circling back to Murphy's shot and the question of the historical accuracy of its account, what about the legend of Patrick Ferguson suposedly passing up an easy shot at George Washington at Brandywine Creek? Did that really happen?

 

[M. De Land]

Boy, am I ever learning some history. It bored me in school but sure is interesting to me now ! I never learned of the bore size of Murphy's rifle and was hoping some one here knew.

 

[oldwood]

Summer 1755, French and Indian war......... And then we have the supremely arrogant British General Edward Braddock. Before he left Philadelphia with his newly landed army , Ben Franklin even cautioned him about Indian and French ambush tactics. While waiting for supply wagons to catch up at Fort Cumberland , (Cumberland ,Md.) , Braddock easily managed to insult and anger a volunteer force of 200 Cherokee Indian British Allies that came to be his army's flankers to prevent ambush , while marching to reduce the French stronghold of Ft. Duquesne , (now Pittsburgh , Pa.) . Our Own Geo. Washington was present ,With a sizable colonial militia and cautioned the Gen. how the western Indians would fight him. Again , arrogance caused a level of ignorance , which would be the undoing of some of the finest , most polished and well trained British Regulars on the American Continent. Washington noted this in his recap of the battle how splendid the over 1000 Redcoat Regulars looked as they passed his review only a short distance , a mile or so from their destruction. Only 600 Western Indians and a few French fighters waited in ambush a mile up from the Monongahela River crossing . Around 1000 British Regulars of the 2000 troops made it across before the Indians opened up from hiding in a series of steep ravines and gullies. (The Cherokee flankers would have warned Braddock well before he began crossing the river. , and saved his army.) Braddock lamely thought his cannons would panic the enemy , but the dense woods and the lay of the land were against cannon shot. The fight lasted a little over two bloody hours. Group after group of Brits.were commanded to sacrifice themselves to deadly fire from an unseen enemy in ambush. Col. Washington and his Eastern Colonial Militia moved in to the front of the fight to cover wounded and surviving rapidly retreating Regulars while the angry Braddock rode among the retreating British and beat them with his sword. Braddock's final few minutes in the battle were in frustration and anger , he killed a Colonial militia man with his sword for hiding behind a tree to reload his empty musket. (Colonial militia were taught from birth to fight Indian style, and not stand in the open .) The dead Militia man's brother , avenging his brother's murder , shot the frustrated Braddock off his horse . Washington's militia bravely defended the mass retreat back to Ft. Cumberland. British Gen. Edward Braddock will be for ever noted for his open arrogance , and inflexible inability to command an army in a different situation than on the open fields of Europe. Much experience in warfare on the American continent could have been gained by the British , and wasn't , but our eventual Gen. Washington gained a world of experience in Braddock's failure...........oldwood

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I don't think anyone knows the bore size of Murphy's rifle because no one knows what he used or for sure that he was even there. The caliber of the swivel breech gun in the Old Fort Museum won't help because it was made long after the Rev War.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Oldwood,
I would love to know the source of the story that Braddock was killed by a colonial soldier as revenge. The British and colonials were not ambushed. The French and Indians were as surprised at contacting the British as the British were. What happened is the front ranks of the British and pathfinders panicked and created chaos in their ranks, which the French and Indians took advantage of. Washington played a very important role saving the army and thoroughly redeemed himself after his humiliation at Fort Necessity.

dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

BTW, it was George Bernard Shaw insinuating incompetence, not me.

Mr. Shaw was a very Evil, little man, regardless of his literary skill, and I'd suggest that anybody using anything that he wrote, quietly cease and desist.

LD

 

[Juice Jaws]

When the legend is better than the truth go with the legend.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
For those interested in Braddock's campaign I urge you to read David Preston's recent book "Braddock's Defeat". He is a well respected professor of history at the Citadel, in SC. He includes much new information and a reappraisal of the campaign.

dave

 

[oldwood]

Dave........I'll get back to you on Braddock's information. My resources are from a number of books containing actual accounts of events from Washington's recap of Braddock's event , as well as information passed down from family member's accounts of different version's of events from back in the day. What is so interesting about the books I have , is that the same events can be read , as noted by different sources , and info compared from one account to another. When I read several different accounts , and they are mostly paralleling testimonies , I have to consider the event might perhaps be credible. I lived and grew up within fifty miles of Ft. necessity , Braddock's temporary grave site , along St. RT. # 40 , Addison, Pa.. Fifty miles North of where I was born is the Braddock defeat battle site along Turtle Creek , Monroeville Pa. , East of Pittsburgh. Studying the period of history between 1740 to 1840 is more than a passing fancy for me. It's a life long study I started in 1962. In my high school I found an original copy of the history of the settlement of Kentucky , by Herbert R Altscheller , the Ky. State Historian. That book , generated in me the thought that there had to be such books written about most of the historical events from my area. and it took me 30 years to find a source for the books to build my library. My concerted study starts with the history written about Conrad Wiser's experiences between the Penn family and the Indian tribes controlling the eastern part of Pa.. This one volume sets the stage for British /American history ca. 1740 and forward. (Sorry Dave , I'm old and go off into the weeds easily. Studying our history , and reading the Bible makes my life complete. The 150 scratch builds has helped , too..............oldwood

 

[smoothshooter]

Chose what it was very naughty of him !. Wether if his relation also Simon was the renowned Explorer who gave his name to the great River in British Columbia ?. I once made a rude raft to run the rapids of Cottonwood canyon but in the event didn't .Perhaps just as well. Some made it, plenty didn't .
Rudyard

???????

 

[1971fx]

I live in Butts Corner NY. A few miles away is the post war home of Murphy in what was then called Charllotteville years ago I bought an original Brown Bess at a long gone local shop for $150. gun show at Unadilla NY Aug 8th has many local dealers

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
Both of the links above retell the same story for which Harrington writes there is no documentation and the origin is dubious. Harrington's point is that the story gets told over and over and then becomes "history" used by even well respected historians but when the source of the story is examined, it raises many doubts. In the Old Stone Fort Museum in Schoharie, NY there is a swivel breech rifle purported to be Murphy's and the one he used during the Revolution. To anyone with some knowledge of long rifle styles it is clear the gun was made in the 19th century. It has a percussion back action lock on which someone fashioned a "flintcock" with a percussion cup welded in the jaws where the flint would go. In fact, the rifle probably dates at least 1 to 2 decades after Murphy died. Below are photos of the rifle. It is of a style made during the percussion era. Note no wood panels along the barrels and no way to attach a pan section for a flintlock.

Note the patch box was probably added later and obscures carving that looks like it comes right off a Melchior Fordney gun from the 1830s. The museum was told that by a KRA member who is the most knowledgeable about American double rifles but it is a case that they spent too much money for it to admit the mistake.

dave

Hmmm. That piece comes under the same heading as Daniel Boone's very own Winchester.

 

[Artificer]

Hi,
There is no proof Murphy was even at Saratoga much less used a swivel breech. It is really interesting that his wife did not even mention his service at Saratoga or shooting Fraser in her application for a pension after he died. She mentioned his other service but nothing about Saratoga or Fraser. He is not listed on any muster rolls taken at Saratoga. Hear is a link for more.
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/0...thy-murphy-and-the-power-of-the-written-word/dave

Actually, I'm VERY surprised almost no one seems to have read the BRITISH accounts of when General Frazer was killed.

It's been a few years, so some of the info we discussed here on this forum escapes my memory, but one account from a British Officer said he thought General Frazer was killed by what must have been a Patriot Militiaman who came out of the woods about 60 yards on Frazer's flank. That Officer even described the Militiaman fairly well, though not exactly.

Gus

 

[smo]

Hmmm. That piece comes under the same heading as Daniel Boone's very own Winchester.

I’m sure Fess Parker owned a Winchester some where along the way…

After all he is the only Daniel Boone most people remember these days.

It seems World and American History are both things of the past…. At least in today’s schools.

That’s really a shame too….

 

[smo]

All great stories and here’s another…

Overmountain Men
Language
Watch
Edit
For other uses, see Mountain Man (disambiguation).
The Overmountain Men were American frontiersmen from west of the Appalachian Mountains who took part in the American Revolutionary War. While they were present at multiple engagements in the war's southern campaign, they are best known for their role in the American victory at the Battle of Kings Mountain in 1780. The term "overmountain" arose because their settlements were west of, or "over", the Appalachians, which was the primary geographical boundary dividing the 13 American colonies from the western frontier. The Overmountain Men hailed from parts of Virginia, North Carolina, and what is now Tennessee and Kentucky.[1]


The Overmountain Man statue, by Jon-Mark Estep, at Sycamore Shoals State Historic Park, in Elizabethton, Tennessee
The efforts of the Overmountain Men helped to solidify the existence of the fragile settlements in the Watauga, Nolichucky, and Holston river valleys, the legitimacy of which had been questioned by the British Crown for several years. Many Overmountain Men, including John Sevier, John Rhea, and Isaac Shelby, went on to play prominent roles in the establishment of the states of Tennessee and Kentucky. The foothold they gained on the frontier helped open the door to mass westward migration in ensuing decades.[2]

The Overmountain settlements

Revolutionary War Edit

Early conflicts Edit
At the outbreak of the American Revolution in 1776, the Overmountain settlers (most of whom were Whigs opposed to the monarchy) began preparing for invasion. The signing of the Watauga Petition and its acceptance by North Carolina —annexing the Washington District to that colony —added further impetus to the Cherokee, who were also being encouraged by the British, to push the American frontiersmen out of the Overmountain settlements. The invasion came in July of that year. While settlers were chased out of Carter's Valley and the Nolichucky settlements, the Cherokee were defeated at Eaton's Station on July 20 and at Fort Watauga on July 21, and eventually retreated from the area. The settlers' struggles gained them the sympathies of North Carolina's revolutionary leaders, who in 1777, allowed the settlements of the Washington District to join equally with the colony, designating the Overmountain area as (the original) Washington County, North Carolina.[3]

The Overmountain Men took part (to varying degrees) in numerous operations against British Loyalists and the British-aligned Cherokee and Shawnee all along the Appalachian frontier. Twenty Wataugans helped defend the Boonesborough and Harrodsburg settlements (in modern Kentucky) from Shawnee attacks in 1778.[3]

During the summer of 1780, a group of Overmountain Men led by Isaac Shelby joined up with Colonel Charles McDowell to raid Loyalist outposts in the Piedmont mountain region of northwestern South Carolina. The Overmountain Men captured Fort Thickety on the Pacolet River and aided in the Patriot victory at the Battle of Musgrove Mill. With the approach of 1780 harvesting season, however, most of the Overmountain Men returned to their farms on the frontier. McDowell stayed behind with a small contingent to continue harassing loyalists.[4]:84–89[5]

Call to arms Edit

Artist Lloyd Branson's depiction of the gathering of the Overmountain Men at Sycamore Shoals
After winning a decisive victory at the Battle of Camden in August 1780, British General Charles Cornwallis invaded North Carolina, and sent Major Patrick Ferguson into the mountains to root out the Patriot irregulars and protect the region's loyalists. Ferguson quickly routed McDowell's badly-outnumbered force, and McDowell retreated across the mountains to the Washington District. Ferguson pardoned a captured frontiersmen named Samuel Phillips (a cousin to Isaac Shelby) so that Phillips could carry a message to the Overmountain settlements. In the message, Ferguson warned the Overmountain Men that if they didn't lay down their arms, he would "march his army over the mountains, hang their leaders, and lay waste the country with fire and sword."[6]

Upon receiving the message, Shelby rode 40 miles (64 km) to Watauga to consult with John Sevier, and the two agreed to raise armies and cross the mountains to engage Ferguson. On September 25, 1780, several hundred frontiersmen gathered at Sycamore Shoals. Lead had been mined at nearby Bumpass Cove for ammunition, Sullivan County merchant John Adair volunteered funds for the expedition, and women prepared clothing and food for the long march. Black powder for the expedition was manufactured by Mary Patton at the Patton mill along nearby Powder Branch.[7] The assembled force consisted of 240 men led by Sevier from Washington County, North Carolina (now Washington County, Tennessee) and the other counties of the Washington District; 240 from Sullivan County led by Shelby; and 400 from southwestern Virginia led by Colonel William Campbell. This main body planned to meet up with the remnants of McDowell's army in the mountains, bringing the total number to just over 1,000. Homeguards were left at Holston and Watauga under Anthony Bledsoe (1739–1788) and Charles Robertson, respectively.[6]

March over the mountains Edit

Abingdon Muster Grounds - The northern trailhead of the 330-mile long Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Map showing camps of the Overmountain Men, September 25–October 7, 1780. Abingdon and modern Knoxville and Asheville are shown for reference
Campbell and his company of 400 Virginians gathered in Abingdon on lands owned by Capt. Andrew Colvill, now known as the Abingdon Muster Grounds,[8] on the banks of Wolf Creek on September 23, 1780 and began the first leg of the march to meet up with a group of "Tennesseans" at Rocky Mount on September 24. They arrived at Sycamore Shoals on the 25th. On September 26, after a fiery sermon by Reverend Samuel Doak, the Overmountain Men began their long trek over the Blue Ridge, marching from Sycamore Shoals to Shelving Rock at the base of Roan Mountain, where they camped for the night. After crossing the mountain at Yellow Mountain Gap, they followed a well-worn path up the North Toe River Valley to Bright's settlement (modern Spruce Pine, North Carolina). On September 29, the force split up at Gillespie Gap (atop the eastern Blue Ridge), with Campbell's contingent descending to Wofford's Fort in Turkey Cove, and Sevier and Shelby's forces descending to North Cove to link up with McDowell. The force reunited the following day and spent the night at the McDowell family plantation at Quaker Meadows (modern Morganton, North Carolina), where they were joined by a 300-man contingent under Benjamin Cleveland and Joseph Winston.[6][9] While camped atop Bedford's Hill on October 1, the force's leaders bickered over who had full command, and Charles McDowell was dispatched to the headquarters of General Horatio Gates to request he name a permanent commander. McDowell left his unit under the command of his brother, Joseph McDowell.[10]

On October 4, the Overmountain Men reached Ferguson's base at Gilbert Town (near modern Rutherfordton), although Ferguson had evacuated eastward toward Charlotte to be closer to the main British army. The following day, while camped at Alexander's Ford along the Green River, a spy told the frontiersmen that Ferguson was headed for Ninety-Six, and the force thus headed southeastward into South Carolina. On October 6, the frontiersmen reached Cowpens, where they were joined by a force of 400 South Carolinians under James Williams and a smaller force of North Carolina militiamen under Lt. Colonel Frederick Hambright, including Lt. Colonel Joseph Hardin and Major John Hardin. A spy notified the force that Ferguson was camped 30 miles (48 km) to the east, and a large number of frontiersmen marched through the night in hopes of forcing a confrontation.[6]

Battle of Kings Mountain Edit

Isaac Shelby
Main article: Battle of Kings Mountain
With the Overmountain Men and Patriot forces fast approaching, Ferguson decided to entrench his 1000-strong loyalist force atop Kings Mountain, a 60-foot (18 m) flat-top hill about 50 miles (80 km) west of Charlotte, near the North Carolina–South Carolina line. Patriot forces reached Kings Mountain on the afternoon of October 7, and formed a U-shape around the mountain, effectively flanking the loyalists. Around 3 P.M., after several minutes of minor skirmishing, William Campbell told his men to "shout like hell and fight like devils,"[4]:85–88 and two companies simultaneously opened fire on the loyalist positions. Shelby, Sevier, Williams, and Cleveland pushed from the north side of the mountain, while Campbell, Winston, and Joseph McDowell pushed from the south side.[11]

While Kings Mountain was difficult to scale, the mountain's slopes were heavily wooded, providing Patriot riflemen ample cover. Both Campbell and Shelby twice attempted to charge up the mountain, but were driven back by loyalist rifle fire.[4] After about an hour, however, the frontier sharpshooters had taken a devastating toll on the loyalists' ranks, and Campbell and Shelby managed to reach the summit. Ferguson was killed by sharpshooters, and the remaining loyalists surrendered.[12] Loyalist casualties included 157 killed, 163 so severely wounded they were left on the field, and 698 captured. Patriot casualties were 28 killed and 62 wounded. Among the Patriot dead was South Carolina militia leader James Williams. John Sevier's brother, Robert, was also mortally wounded. The loyalist prisoners were marched toward the mountains, pausing in northern Rutherford County, where several were put on trial for atrocities allegedly committed on the frontier, and nine were hanged, including Colonel Ambrose Mills.[13][14]

Sound familiar …

War is a dirty business, freedom is why it’s worth the cost.

 

[Artificer]

Ferguson pardoned a captured frontiersmen named Samuel Phillips (a cousin to Isaac Shelby) so that Phillips could carry a message to the Overmountain settlements. In the message, Ferguson warned the Overmountain Men that if they didn't lay down their arms, he would "march his army over the mountains, hang their leaders, and lay waste the country with fire and sword."[6]

Cornwallis or maybe Ferguson, actually had many broadsides (printed posters) made up with the same threat and posted them all over two counties where the Overmountain Men were known to operate and/or crossed to get to or come back from their homes over the mountains. At least one of those broadsides have survived to this day.

Now I'm not sure Cornwallis actually would have carried out the threat, but he darn sure was trying to intimidate the Overmountain Men to stay out of the War. WOW was THAT a GIGANTIC MISTAKE!!! The Overmountain Men BELIEVED Cornwallis would actually do it.

Most of us today have no concept of the threat of "Putting them to fire and the sword" meant. However, many if not most people back then knew it meant the British would come in and kill every last Man, Woman and Child, steal anything they wanted, kill any livestock they couldn't take back and BURN everything to the ground. Another way to put that is Total Genocide of the Overmountain Men's Parents, Wives, Children and everyone else they knew who could not get away, as well as burn everything they owned. It is difficult to almost impossible to even imagine how much that threat INFURIATED the Overmountain Men! They came down with BLOOD in their eyes and could not wait to kill Ferguson and his troops. (I'm actually surprised they took ANY British prisoners after the Battle of King's Mountain and not tomahawked and scalped every one of the prisoners.)

Further, this meant the Overmountain Men were NOT going to let Ferguson reach the safety of the main British Army's lines, as Ferguson was in a hurried retreat to that safety when he learned how many Overmountain Men were on his trail. More than one account says the Overmountain Men picked 700 of their men with the best horses to get between Ferguson and the rest of the British Army. Then Ferguson had to find the best defensive position and that's why he chose "the High Ground" of King's Mountain to do it.

Gus

 

[1971fx]

My neighbor from history